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11 gauge vs. 12 gauge boiler tubes?


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  #1  
Old 10-16-2006, 01:16:57 PM
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Default 11 gauge vs. 12 gauge boiler tubes?

Have any of you had much experience with 2" diameter 11 gauge boiler tubes?

I was wandering if they slowed heat transfer compared to 12 gauge tubes, and if they do is it worth it to get a few more years of use?

-Mark Thompson
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Old 10-16-2006, 01:41:10 PM
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Default Re: 11 gauge vs. 12 gauge boiler tubes?

Mark,
Watch me get hammered with this one!

I put 11ga. tubes in my Case in the spring of 1981. You definitely have to anneal them, which is important on either of them. They possibly bead a little harder? However, I could generally make one round with my beading tool on the air hammer and it was finished. Other than that, I think they steam just as fast as with 12ga. tubes? If it takes five minutes longer, I guess I'm too old and senile to notice it?

I had a choice when I bought them, as they were "remnant" from another job the boiler shop had done, thereby the price interested me. They still weren't cheap even back then but I have never regretted using them. Likely, most of you east of me, can buy tubes less expensively, as everything out here in the wild west has a freight tag padded a little.
Gary
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Old 10-16-2006, 01:57:18 PM
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Default Re: 11 gauge vs. 12 gauge boiler tubes?

Mine has rather heavy tubes in it....(not sure the gauge, but I had to get an undersized brush to get it to go through!) Anyway, they've already been in 20 years and I HOPE they last a LOT longer because rolling and beading tubes in the "Miller Patent" firebox HAS to be a bear (I've been told the only way to roll them is from the front! ) I had to replace a short "inspection" tube about 3" long in the backhead, beading it by hand took FOREVER because you have no room to swing the hammer (about 12" between the inside back firebox sheet and the tube sheet) Super efficient? maybe...A maintenance headache?
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Old 10-16-2006, 02:00:47 PM
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Default Re: 11 gauge vs. 12 gauge boiler tubes?

id say 11 is getting pretty heavy. i think a lot of people use 12 now? they aren't too light or heavy and they last pretty good. most cases came out with 13 except for the 110 it came with 12.
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Old 10-16-2006, 03:17:36 PM
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Default Re: 11 gauge vs. 12 gauge boiler tubes?

Boiler Tube Dimensions

size o.d. . . . . . . . . .thickness . . . . . . . . . . .manufacturing weight
inches . . . . .b.w.g . . . .decimal of inch . . . . . . . .pounds per foot.
2 . . . . . . . . . 13 . . . . . . . . . .095 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2.201
2 . . . . .. . . . . 12 . . . . . . . . . .109 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2.503
2 . . . . . . . . . 11 . . . . . . . . . .120 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2.726
2 . . . . . . . . . 10 . . . .. . . . . . .134 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .3.018
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Old 10-16-2006, 04:37:29 PM
Kelly Anderson Kelly Anderson is offline
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Default Re: 11 gauge vs. 12 gauge boiler tubes?

One possible problem that thicker tubes may cause is accelerated stress corrosion on the tube sheet knuckle. Being thicker, the tubes themselves are more rigid and get hotter, then expand lengthwise more. This pushes the tube pack portions of the tube sheets farther apart than thinner tubes would. The first place this additional motion makes itself known is at the side and crown knuckles of the rear tube sheet, and over time, craters of the moon are the result.
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Old 10-16-2006, 06:36:05 PM
JMathews JMathews is offline
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Default Re: 11 gauge vs. 12 gauge boiler tubes?

We went from 13ga to 10 in dads old minne, that was a big diference in the heat transfer rate.
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Old 10-17-2006, 08:46:45 PM
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Default Re: 11 gauge vs. 12 gauge boiler tubes?

I put 11 guage in the Reeves this spring, and if I have her warm the night before, I can have 75 pounds up in about 45 minutes. I know a couple of people that put 14 gauge in and love them. I know some that put 9 guage in, had a hell of a time rolling and beading, but they love them... I think it is up to your own preference........

Josh
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Old 10-17-2006, 09:12:38 PM
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Default Re: 11 gauge vs. 12 gauge boiler tubes?

Josh,
I sure hear you about easy steaming. I put a new ash pan in my Case about five years ago. I can really throttle down my fire, but it still would like to climb in pressure, if it could. Of course with your water bottom and not having a front ash pan cleanout door, you should really be able to keep your fire down too. It isn't like you have to force my engine. I even find myself stuffing that abomnible spark arrestor down tight sometimes, so it won't over fire. And when I want to crowd the pressure, like when I want to do a job with it, it climbs like an eagle (no pun intended)!
Gary
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Old 10-17-2006, 09:27:56 PM
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Default Re: 11 gauge vs. 12 gauge boiler tubes?

In August I put 41 ,2inch 10 gauge tubes in my Peerless, The ones removed were also 10 gauge ,they were installed in 1953 or 1954. I have to agree with Josh, it is all in what you prefer.
They rolled in easier than I thought they would (by hand) even so, all I can say is I am still thankful that I have a friend who lent me his power beader. I had both ends beaded in less than 11 hours and it was still a labor intensive job.

Mike
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Old 10-20-2006, 05:56:42 PM
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Default Re: 11 gauge vs. 12 gauge boiler tubes?

I want to thank all of you for the helpful replies.

I was worried that the heat transfer would be slowed quite a bit.

After reading your replies, I think that I will go with a set of 11 gauge tubes in my 20HP M. Rumely.

Again, thank you very much.

-Mark Thompson

Last edited by Mark Thompson; 10-20-2006 at 06:41:24 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 10-20-2006, 06:57:13 PM
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Default Re: 11 gauge vs. 12 gauge boiler tubes?

The 11ga in my Keck were replced in 1983 and have caused no trouble. We rolled and beeded all 54 10ga in dads minne by hand, that is alot of work. I don't think I would use them again.
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Old 02-20-2010, 04:52:04 PM
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Default Re: 11 gauge vs. 12 gauge boiler tubes?

Guys,
We have a couple of tube projects coming up. One has 2 1/2 inch tubes and will be a 100 pounder at best; the other has 2" and will be a 150 pounder.
Any further thoughts on gauge as well as desired mill specs, etc.?
Thanks,
G.
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Old 02-20-2010, 08:55:44 PM
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Default Re: 11 gauge vs. 12 gauge boiler tubes?

Onkle G,

The main reason that I went with the 11 gauge tubes is they were quite a bit cheaper than 12 gauge tubes.

I know it doesn't make sense, because the 12 gauges are thinner. They may have been cheaper because they produce 11 gauge in larger quantities or hand more on hand.

The 11 gauge tubes have worked very well so far. The boiler steams well.

I did have to modify the beading tools to form the thicker tubes as they were originally finished for 12 gauge.

They were a little more difficult to roll and bead, no real problem, just a learning curve. It seemed the length was much more critical as there is a larger cross section of material to bead over. A 3/16" average of exposed tube to bead seemed to work very well with the tools that I made.

http://www.smokstak.com/gallery/file...SC01157lll.JPG

-Mark
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Old 02-21-2010, 12:18:40 PM
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Default Re: 11 gauge vs. 12 gauge boiler tubes?

Hi a 12 ga tube will last longer than a 11 ga if you treat the water with 12 ga and don't with 11 ga. Taking good care of your water doesnt cost it saves. btw 50 years retired boilermaker operater. bob
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Old 02-21-2010, 05:42:10 PM
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Default Re: 11 gauge vs. 12 gauge boiler tubes?

Funny thing, I helped a guy put new tubes in an engine last year. He baught 12ga tubes. He got them home, I thought they looked kinda heavy. I compaired them to a left over piece from Dad's engine, Dad got 10ga. They were the same thickness, .105. The engine fired better with the new tubes, no lime scale build up. The old tubes were thiner than the new ones. They weren't as thin as the ones out of Dad's engine, Dad used 13ga the first time.
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Old 02-21-2010, 06:00:04 PM
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Default Re: 11 gauge vs. 12 gauge boiler tubes?

Wonder what the "standard" gauge is in new welded construction today? Something tells me it is 13 gg in a lot of cases? Is there anything wrong with 13 gg in a 150-175# boiler?
Thanks,
G.
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Old 02-21-2010, 06:12:57 PM
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Default Re: 11 gauge vs. 12 gauge boiler tubes?

It really depends on the length of the tube to determine required minimum thickness.
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Old 02-21-2010, 09:56:59 PM
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Default Re: 11 gauge vs. 12 gauge boiler tubes?

Quote:
Is there anything wrong with 13 gg in a 150-175# boiler?
13 ga. USED to be the most common boiler tube gauge. Back when people built boilers as competitively as possible and expected life was secondary to initial cost.

Any boiler I've retubed (now 3) has been 13 ga.

The Machinery's Handbook 19th ed. gives on page 441 "Dimensions and Maximum Allowable Pressure of Tubes Subjected to External Pressure."

A 2" 13 ga. tube (0.095 wall) is listed as 427 pounds.

So I might guess you are safe.

I was given about 1000 LF of charcoal steel seamless 2" 14 ga. tube. I've calculated this out as an allowable working pressure of 175. Should be fine in a lap seam boiler not to exceed 100 psi. But I plan on beading both ends of the tubes.

Joe
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Old 02-21-2010, 10:21:19 PM
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Default Re: 11 gauge vs. 12 gauge boiler tubes?

More on this.

ASME Boiler Code 1959 (yup a tad dated but likely still acceptable) lists in section P-23 a table P-4 which lists allowable working pressure of 2" 13ga. tube under external (firetube) pressure as 210 pounds.

They also give a formula which gives the pressure for my 14 ga. tubes as 126 pounds.

I'm not sure how to account for the differences in the reported maximum allowable pressure. I'd be inclined to go with the ASME Code (Of course!)

Joe
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