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Metal Skeins & Wood Axles Sandwich Saw


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  #1  
Old 10-10-2012, 07:08:45 AM
ShaneZahn ShaneZahn is offline
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Default Metal Skeins & Wood Axles Sandwich Saw

I have an original Sandwich Buzz Saw & Engine Truck.
Most of the truck, is made of steel & or iron. The I beams are ten feet long.
The original wooden Axles are beyond use with the metal Skeins.
Is it possible to convert from wood to steel axles, made of pipe or channel iron welded to the Skeins.?
From what I've found in the Stak records, It has not been done or talked about.
Because of the interior shape of the Skeins, & the fact that they might be cast iron. It wouldn't be an easy job.
From what I've seen in pictures, more buss saws trucks had steel axles, than the wood axles, I have, for my truck.
Any advice would be helpful.
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Old 10-10-2012, 09:11:16 AM
Kevin O. Pulver Kevin O. Pulver is offline
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Default Re: Metal Skeins & Wood Axles Sandwich Saw

I'm not sure what a wooden "skein" is. But if you have an original sandwich cart with metal rails on wood axles, you'd better fix the thing right. Get it to a a good carpenter or buggy/wheel maker and have them restore the wood part for you. If you go welding stuff up rather than making it original, some day you'll be sorry. If it's worth doing- it's worth doing right.
Sounds like a good project. How about some pictures?

---------- Post added at 08:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:04 AM ----------

Correction, wood on metal skeins. Anyway, I've seen metal buggy axles with wood clamped onto them. Is that the sort of thing you have? That would look real slick on a cart with a nice Sandwich!

---------- Post added at 08:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:06 AM ----------

Re=reading your post, I'm wondering if a cast iron "skein" is part of your wheel?
What ever it is, your wood can be put to rights fairly easily I would think by a wheel wright/ buggy man and would definitely be worth it for such a nice engine and unusual cart.
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Old 10-10-2012, 09:54:24 AM
Larry Anger Larry Anger is offline
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Default Re: Metal Skeins & Wood Axles Sandwich Saw

A skein is the metal hub of a wood wheel that rides on a wooden axel. New skeins can still be purchased here. http://www.hansenwheel.com/store/pro...product_id=172
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Old 10-10-2012, 10:47:48 AM
ShaneZahn ShaneZahn is offline
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Default Re: Metal Skeins & Wood Axles Sandwich Saw

http://www.smokstak.com/library/orig...he-sell-it-20/
I believe, I have the makings of a truck like shown in the above link, with the exception of the axles. My axles are (were) wood & had metal Skeins on the ends of each side of the axle. Then the steel wheel was mounted on to the Skeins. I do not know what the Skeins were made from, I am lead to believe & assume they are cast iron. I really do not know for sure.
My feelings about it being original is this. I do not believe a wood axle made today will last as long as the original wood axle did. Therefore I feel a steel axle would stand a better chance of surviving into the future. I see no reason why my engine shouldn't last another hundred years, its all like new. A wooden axle would be the weakest link in the chain, which could cause the whole thing to be scraped.
At this time I only have a pile of wood & iron parts that will make up the truck. A picture will do no justice to make these parts look better or come together. I haven't started to work on this yet & need to address the axle issue first. When I have axles that will hold the wheels together, I can place the steel rails on them & start bolting things together. The end result should look very much like what is in the linked picture, with the saw being on the other end of the truck.
The original axles most likely are 4x6 oak. I don't think finding a wheel-right would be all that difficult, but would much rather have steel, only for the longevity.
I got this engine because it failed to continue to work properly. Otherwise the original owner would still have it. The axles could no longer hold together, end of use.
The picture has the same wheels as I have & I see steel parts to support the rails & axles that I have as well.
How are the wheel Skeins mounted to the channel iron in the picture. How did they make the transition.?
Thanks for your attention in this matter.

---------- Post added at 10:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:37 AM ----------

Thanks Larry.
I'd like to mention that I have the original wood Axles, Skeins & Wheels complete with the nuts.
Thanks for the link site.
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Old 10-10-2012, 11:18:10 AM
Dale Russell Dale Russell is offline
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Default Re: Metal Skeins & Wood Axles Sandwich Saw

I am with Kevin, Fix it right like it was when it was originally. Wooden Axles were what they used in those days. A wooden axle made of Oak with today's wood preservative should last a life time and it would look authentic. Find a good Wheel Right or a Buggy Maker and talk to them, you may change your mind on how you want to Restore your project.
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Old 10-10-2012, 11:24:18 AM
Jake Jacobs Jake Jacobs is offline
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Default Re: Metal Skeins & Wood Axles Sandwich Saw

Check this website out. http://www.lostcrafts.com/Blacksmith-70.html
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:37:35 PM
Kevin O. Pulver Kevin O. Pulver is offline
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Default Re: Metal Skeins & Wood Axles Sandwich Saw

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Anger View Post
A skein is the metal hub of a wood wheel that rides on a wooden axel. New skeins can still be purchased here. http://www.hansenwheel.com/store/pro...product_id=172
Thanks Larry, I've seen a lot of skeins on rotted away wheels, but didn't know what they were called.

Shane,
You can do anything you want with your junque. But it's not really likely that "the whole thing would be scrapped out" in the future due to you doing a quality restoration which involves reproduction wooden axles.
The only thing likely, is that if you go welding stuff all over your original Sandwich cart, you will live to regret it.

Here's a great compromise. Put your engine on a different cart temporarily while you get the original cart restored correctly. Then you can either put it together and be proud of it, OR sell the original cart to someone who will appreciate it for what it is and will put a big old Sandwich on it.

Really the only reason to show engines is because they are old and unusual, your wooden axle cart would be something everyone would enjoy seeing, and it would take 100 years of laying outside to destroy it. Put it inside, and it'll last beyond your lifetime and that of your future grandchildren.

---------- Post added at 11:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:15 AM ----------

P.S.
Sorry I can't access your link. It says I don't have enough priveleges.
And it would be best to keep your engine and cart together, I only mention separating them as being better than welding steel axles on it. Please post pics and keep us in the loop!

---------- Post added at 11:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:18 AM ----------

Shane, I found this on one of your other earlier posts:

"So this saw rig is a long piece of equipment...But how do you haul something like that, out to the local Tractor & Engine shows. ?
your pictures speak so loudly of the men of yesterday, that worked these engines & the equipment attached to them to make a living and support the families. Amazing age to be alive.
Thanks again . DFZ"

I have a 12 Horse Hercules/Champion, and a 9 Horse Economy, and can say that big long engines are not much fun to load compared to small engines, and they take a big trailer even for just one, but they get a lot of attention and are fun to show.
So the early Sandwiches had partly wooden carts huh? I think Sandwiches are great looking engines, I don't see a lot of big ones, and can't remember ever seeing a cart with wooden axles/wheels at a show. (maybe one or two in magazines). I just want to encourage you that something that old, unusual, and attractive is worth whatever hassle and money it would take to put it right again.
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:24:16 PM
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Default Re: Metal Skeins & Wood Axles Sandwich Saw

I'm thinking you have a engine truck made out of a Farm Wagon as these were very common both with Wooden and Steel wheels.

No doubt the engine and saw rig was placed on it very early in it's life if not when it was new.

If you're creative you can replace the rotted wood or take to a shop that does that sort of thing. Use real Hardwood not the average Home Depot stuff.
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:50:14 PM
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Photo Re: Metal Skeins & Wood Axles Sandwich Saw

I have a Sandwich big 6 on a saw cart number 521, the 21st engine bulit. It was on a all wood cart with a wood frame for the saw. I had to replace most of the wood. Tha catalogs show an all steel cart very soon after they started making engines. Sandwich also sold engines without a cart and the cart was added later. I do not know how your engine came when new, but I think it was put on that cart early. If you want to put it on steel axels I think it would be fine. and hold up better.
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:39:36 PM
LeRoy IHC LeRoy IHC is offline
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Default Re: Metal Skeins & Wood Axles Sandwich Saw

Hello

I'm wondering why you think wooden axles made today wouldn't be as good as the ones made 100 years ago. I remember my grandfather making new wooden axles and fitting the skeins to the wood. The way he did it was he took measurements from the inside of the skeins and he rough cut the wood to shape with hand saw. After he had the end of the axle roughed out with the saw he used a hand plane and rasp to start shaping the wood to it's final shape. As he got the wood shaped he wood take blue carpenters chalk and go over the entire end of the axle with the chalk. Then he'd slide the skein on carefully and tap it with a mallet to get it snug and then he'd carefully tap the skein off the axle and where the chalk was gone he knew that was a high spot. He'd work the high spots down and then, he'd repeat the chalk process until the skein was fitted the whole way on to the wood. He used Locust wood as I remember, but I'm sure something like Ash
or Hickory would work OK. I have all my grandfathers tools he used to work on wagon wheels etc.

Do what you want, but if you do it right like others have said if and when the time comes that you want to sell it, you just took all the excuse's away from the tire kickers that this ain't right and that ain't right etc.

If you don't think so just look at the Auction results from this past weekend for Lake Side Farms. Everything there was first class and restored to operate like it did when it was new. I'm not talking about the paint jobs. I'm talking about the meat and potatoes that made those tractors and engines run.

Just my 2 cents

LeRoy
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:43:20 PM
ShaneZahn ShaneZahn is offline
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Default Re: Metal Skeins & Wood Axles Sandwich Saw

I am real grateful for the input you guys are giving me.
I have several problems with wood. The first being, that we do not have a piece of wood in America that's as good as what was originally under this truck. Second. I offer two pictures of trucks made by The Sandwich Mfg, Co. 1) http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=106883
2) http://www.smokstak.com/forum/attach...9&d=1341606851
Number One, has the wood axles my truck had, but I have the steel rails the second picture truck has under the engine.
Another thing comes to mind, when I think about originality. If I do what was real original. Then I'll find myself with a copy of what is in one or the other of the three pictures I've used in this subject. I want my expression of my equipment. Not a carbon copy of someone's else
original. Am I barking at the moon here.?
If the truck was made at the factory with both wood & steel axles. Whats the harm in building my axles the way it was built at the factory, at a later date in time. This is not someones homemade cart.
Its factory built. I have piece for piece, of items I see in other pictures of original factory equipment.
A copy of the Sandwich Gasoline Engine booklet shows a portable sawing outfit on page 23. I see numerous parts that I have & it has wood axles.
However. An 8Hp engine on page 6 has what appears to be pipe looking axles, with the same wheels as the saw rig.
Who's to say what was original.?
For the time being, I have placed the engine on a lawn tractor frame contraption, just so I can move it around the yard. To run the engine. I must block the frame up with wood & get it off the tires.
I don't have any pictures of it on the frame. to busy working to take pictures. I just installed a big winch into my trailer floor, today to load my engines. Beyond a doubt one is at least 2000 pounds with the truck. Here's a look see. site. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3WSR...eature=related
I am hoping to put two of these engines side by side in the trailer.
We 'll but the small engines into the smaller trailer. We are just starting to do a show now & then. Not to far from home, & we can only do so much financially. All these toys cost as much as a college education.
So look at the pictures & let me know what you think.
Thanks again to all you guys for this help.
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Old 10-10-2012, 06:07:12 PM
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Default Re: Metal Skeins & Wood Axles Sandwich Saw

You don't have a piece of steel in America as good as what the original 'could' have been anyway? The fact is it was wood, and if you want to do it right make it out of wood again and it will last another century, that's not bad mileage. What you are saying just don't stack up.

It's obvious steel axles are better that's why every engine built after that used them. If you want a 'better' engine go and get a Briggs.... Maybe you should make it enclosed that would be better and improve longevity...
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Old 10-10-2012, 07:43:59 PM
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Default Re: Metal Skeins & Wood Axles Sandwich Saw

is your engine an early or late Sandwich? what is your number?
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Old 10-11-2012, 07:37:50 AM
Emil K Emil K is offline
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Default Re: Metal Skeins & Wood Axles Sandwich Saw

You can find hardwood today that is just as good as what they had 100 years ago. You just have to select the right wood just like they would have 100 years ago, a good hardwood like white oak or ash, have a straight grain, and dried well to keep it straight. You could get wood sawed at almost any show.Do a good job of fitting the Skiens and when your all done you have something that not a lot of people have. You would be suprised how strong that wood axle will be. I would put it back the way it was. That in it self would very unque.
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Old 10-11-2012, 11:04:45 AM
Kevin O. Pulver Kevin O. Pulver is offline
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Default Re: Metal Skeins & Wood Axles Sandwich Saw

Shane,
You may be correct that the wood available to us isn't quite as good as what was available 100 years ago. But as Bell and Gossett engineer Gil Carlson used to say, "A difference, to BE a difference, has to MAKE a difference."
In other words, the wood we have now is good enough that you'll never know the difference. And as Joe said, the steel we have may not be as good either. Joe was right on when he intimated that working with these engines is not about what is more modern or better, but what is original and cruder.
You can do what you want with your stuff, but it sounds to me like you might be happier selling the cart to someone who would appreciate it.... happier until later, when you'll kick yourself.
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Old 10-11-2012, 12:09:29 PM
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Default Re: Metal Skeins & Wood Axles Sandwich Saw

Can I add my 2 cents worth from here in England? my wife and I visit the USA and Canada as visitors and are always amazed at the way every small town has a museum. These are run by people who are proud of their history, both of their town and their country. It seems to me that if you put steel axles on your cart, another little piece of history has been lost and children not yet born will not see the skills involved in building a cart of dissimilar materials. They will not appreciate the work of a craftsman hand shaping a piece of wood, and fitting it to the steelwork in such a way that it will be strong and able to take the stresses of the engine at work. Surely a little research will find some top quality oak, and a craftsman to do the job? Kept in presevation, the wood will last for ever and you will always be able to talk about it at shows. Politicians are always ready to talk down history, surely we should be doing our best to preserve it? You can use American oak or chinese steel, it your choice, but I know what I would pick. As I said, just my 2 cents worth, from England.

My house was built in 1763, I don't have plastic windows, I had new windows hand made in wood. Phil.
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Old 10-11-2012, 05:33:56 PM
Kevin O. Pulver Kevin O. Pulver is offline
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Default Re: Metal Skeins & Wood Axles Sandwich Saw

Phil,
Few Americans can relate to a house that was built in 1763!
Where I live in the state of Nebraska, (smack dab in the middle of the U.S)
it wasn't homesteaded until the 1870s, and then they lived in houses of sod that was cut and stacked. There are very few of those left, and the ones that are, usually are covered up with cement or other to where they don't look like sod anymore. As an aside, a photographer named Solomon Butcher took LOTS of photos of those sod houses and the pioneers who lived in them, and preserved that part of history for us.
Here is just one of many links that come up if you google his name.
http://www.nebraskahistory.org/lib-a...cher/index.htm
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Old 10-11-2012, 07:39:30 PM
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Default Re: Metal Skeins & Wood Axles Sandwich Saw

Shanezahn, Give this Amish man a call. Nolts wheel , 214 N Shirk Road, New Holland,Pa 17557 1-717-355-9182. If he can't help fit new wood axles to your skeins, I am sure he can tell you who can. You will also enjoy the ride to Lancaster county from flemington, NJ

My two cents (.02) worth. Replace you axle with wood. If Nolt dose not have wood email me I will help you locate some.

Oak or Hickery generaly used.

Tim
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Old 10-11-2012, 09:57:29 PM
Kevin O. Pulver Kevin O. Pulver is offline
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Default Re: Metal Skeins & Wood Axles Sandwich Saw

After the helpful post by Leroy IHC, I am confident that with a little time, I could probably even get the skeins adequately fitted to the axle. It sounds like a fun project.
I like to burn wood, (actually char the dickens out of it with an oxy/acetylene torch) then scrub the black off with a stiff wire brush, in order to age it.
It really raises the grain of the wood and makes it look very old. It's not black when you're done, but sort of a brown. Some boiled linseed oil and turpentine on it would really make it look nice, and preserve it as well.
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Old 10-12-2012, 08:03:04 PM
ShaneZahn ShaneZahn is offline
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Default Re: Metal Skeins & Wood Axles Sandwich Saw

My thanks to all, for your input in this matter. All opinions & 2 cents worth, is just what I need, and I had some very nice offers of help by e-mail as well.
To answer a few statements or questions made. I'll start with Bob Ronning: "is your engine an early or late Sandwich? what is your number?".... I believe the engine is a late model. It has a Wico Magneto & a date on the Magneto bracket is around 1927. The serial number is E29085. The engine has its minor brakes & welds, but is in extremely good condition, making me think its younger, rather than older. It had very little paint, but not much rust & lots of black grease or the most pure form of dirt. When I got it. It cleaned up very well.
Any wood parts for the truck was to far gone to make use of.
I did get the wood axles which are not structurally sound. but could be used to copy. They are full of black ants & other bugs. The saw frame is wood and is very much the same condition as your saw was. Looks very much like your picture of your saw.
It is possible this truck was just for the engine, a seat etc.
& then the saw was added on as an accessory use, by the buyer / owners.

PPPlant Hi Phil. My house is older than 1763. My grand father installed a coal furnace in the hand dug basement in 1953. Afterwards someone converted it to an oil burner. Just about the same time. Someone had the bright idea to install indoor plumbing & bathrooms. They were chicken farmers. Sold Eggs.
How did they pay for all the modernization to an old farm house.
Some guy by the name of Kettering sold them a Delco light Generator & put lights in the house.
My grand parents really messed this house up, & I added to that mess when I installed aluminum insulated windows & doors. Not to mention. I took out the horse hair & mud insulation inside the exterior walls & installed John Mansfield R-19. We had it nice & warm in the winters & the place don't look to bad for a track built or development type house, hell I even took out the powder post eaten trees under the floors.
Thanks Phil for the push in the right direction.
I must admit. England looks very beautiful both in the modern & historic era. Actually Nanny was a British subject.

Kevin, Jake, Larry,Tim, Emil, Larrop, Leroy, Ken, Dale.
I appreciate the time you spent to answer my question.
I see things with a new view because of your input in the subject. I do not know what the outcome will be at this time. Wood or steel. Its a winter project when things get slow for me. I will do my best to keep it looking original.
Shane.
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