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Mopar Gurus Needed


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  #1  
Old 04-25-2019, 03:23:32 PM
Tracy T Tracy T is offline
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Default Mopar Gurus Needed

starter problem, new starter, new ring gear on torque converter and it still wants to skip every now and then. what the sam hill am i missing? is their some kind of adjustment on the starter itself? almost like the starter is spinning before it gets engaged. and no there is not a pilot bushing/ bearing stuck in the end of rhe crankshaft. 360 engine, 727 torqueflight transmission.

---------- Post added at 03:23:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:16:24 PM ----------

i think i just found the answer! is there a difference between automatic and standard transmission crankshafts? same casting numbers different part numbers!
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  #2  
Old 04-25-2019, 04:11:37 PM
Vanman Vanman is offline
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Default Re: mopar gurus needed

As I recall, certain engines did use a different crank between standard and auto.

Bear with my story.... And the fact that these memories are more than 20 years old.

My van came with a 318 and 727 trans. I then installed an A833 four speed overdrive trans. That was cool. But then I swapped out the 318 for a mildly hopped up 440. This required custom modification of an aftermarket flywheel housing as no stock housing could be found that fit that engine and trans together.

Man that was fun, but the engine wore that trans out. I then knew why I couldn't find that flywheel housing lol. So I wanted to go back to a Torqueflite, obviously the big block version, so it would bolt up to my engine.

This is where it got interesting. I wanted a trans with a torque converter clutch (lock up).

Also, my engine had a steel crank instead of cast. On the big block engines, cast cranks were externally balanced, steel internally balanced.

But Chrysler never made a big block 727 with lock up TC.

So I needed a lock up TC from an internally balanced small block. It turns out that the 318 was the ONLY such engine.

So a 318 lock up TC is what I used. Chrysler torque converters are furnace brazed from the factory and very durable, so I wasn't worried about this.

I had to put the small block internals in the big block case to get the input shaft and valve body for the lock up converter. I believe they were all the same. Just the housing is bigger where it mates to the engine.

So, the moral of the story, you need to make certain that you have the correct combination of crank and torque converter!

BTW, I love my Dodge Maxivan. I haven't been able to drive it in ages due to smog regs. It passes, but isn't approved. The trans is hopped up too, complete with a manual valve body. It shifts RIGHT NOW. Back in the day the van would give respectably quick cars a run for their money. MUCH to their owners' surprise!!

Keith
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  #3  
Old 04-25-2019, 04:22:05 PM
Tracy T Tracy T is offline
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Default Re: mopar gurus needed

i havnt given up, just waiting for verification. i do have a plan B, and it does not include removal of engine or transmission!
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  #4  
Old 04-25-2019, 05:56:01 PM
Chuck Woycke Chuck Woycke is online now
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Default Re: mopar gurus needed

my guess when you buy a new or rebuilt starter the starter flange or mounting that bolts to the bell housing are difference thickness you must shim up the starter to much the ring gear on rebuilt starters they mill the mounting to make sure its straight you must shim them up if you don't the starter gear will either crash into the ring gear or it will not engage all the way into the ring gear and skip some times
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  #5  
Old 04-25-2019, 06:59:07 PM
cornbinder89 cornbinder89 is offline
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Default Re: mopar gurus needed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Woycke View Post
my guess when you buy a new or rebuilt starter the starter flange or mounting that bolts to the bell housing are difference thickness you must shim up the starter to much the ring gear on rebuilt starters they mill the mounting to make sure its straight you must shim them up if you don't the starter gear will either crash into the ring gear or it will not engage all the way into the ring gear and skip some times
That is a GM thing, Dodge don't get shimmed. Bellhousing should be check for concentric to crank, offset dowel pins are use to correct a mis alignment.
BTW As far as I know, The only difference in auto cranks vs. std cranks was at one point, somewhere in the late 60's they stopped drilling the back of the crank for a pilot bushing on auto cranks. I converted auto to std but it was an early engine (red engine, not a later blue engine). Early vs late cranks had different rear flange dimensions, late being bigger.
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Old 04-25-2019, 08:52:44 PM
Kothe Kothe is offline
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Default Re: mopar gurus needed

as I recall the crankshaft for the auto trans is not drilled for the pilot bushing of a manual trans , I remember pulling a few cranks and had them drilled for the pilot bearing
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  #7  
Old 04-26-2019, 07:06:06 AM
Tracy T Tracy T is offline
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Default Re: mopar gurus needed

engine year is unknown, looks like someone put a reman in, it did however have the remains of a pilot bearing in the crankshaft which i removed. interesting note on offset dowel plns.
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  #8  
Old 04-26-2019, 08:02:01 AM
Doug Tallman Doug Tallman is online now
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Default Re: mopar gurus needed

The pilot stub on the front of the converter has to go into the pilot hole in the back of the crank. I ran into a problem the opposite direction once but can't remember the engine size. We were swapping engines and the customer bought an engine from an automatic and we were putting it in a standard shift. The hole in the crank was too big for the pilot bearing. That's when we learned there was a difference in the pilot hole size in the crank between auto and standard. My problem was easy, just make a custom bushing. Going from standard to auto would have been a problem since the hole wouldn't have been big enough for the converter pilot.
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Old 04-26-2019, 08:39:03 AM
Tracy T Tracy T is offline
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Default Re: mopar gurus needed

i started the thing several times yesterday later in the evening and even unpluged the coil so it wouldnt start and it never did it again. so i dont know what happened, maybe something expanded when it warmed up and everything seated?
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Old 04-26-2019, 09:48:43 AM
cornbinder89 cornbinder89 is offline
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Default Re: mopar gurus needed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Tallman View Post
The pilot stub on the front of the converter has to go into the pilot hole in the back of the crank. I ran into a problem the opposite direction once but can't remember the engine size. We were swapping engines and the customer bought an engine from an automatic and we were putting it in a standard shift. The hole in the crank was too big for the pilot bearing. That's when we learned there was a difference in the pilot hole size in the crank between auto and standard. My problem was easy, just make a custom bushing. Going from standard to auto would have been a problem since the hole wouldn't have been big enough for the converter pilot.
It has been a few years, but the way I remember, there is a ring on the flange that locates the flywheel or flexplate on the back of the flange, the inside of that ring is what the converter nose is located on, the std trans has a bushing inside the crank, further in than the ring.
IF Tracy T is using a late model flexplate on an early model crank, it will not be held concentric to the crank, as the bolt holes are not what is supposed to locate the plate, the ring on the flange is, or at least that is how I remember it.
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  #11  
Old 04-26-2019, 10:08:18 AM
Doug Tallman Doug Tallman is online now
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Default Re: mopar gurus needed

The flex plate is centered by the flange. The converter is centered by the pilot in the back of the crank and confirms the centerline with the crank. You can't have a pilot bushing and the converter at the same time. They both go in the same basic pocket. Having the converter pilot snug in the crank is more critical than the flex plate mounting.

With the bell housing bolted together, there should have been a gap between the converter and the plate. Did the converter slide forward easy and go flat against the flex plate? Those are the critical things to look for.
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Old 04-26-2019, 10:31:43 AM
Tracy T Tracy T is offline
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Default Re: mopar gurus needed

yes it seated into the crankshaft, i polished the inside of the crank and the stub snout on the converter. it was being a little dificult but it did finally seat into the crankshaft. I couldnt get it to slide in by hand, so i put a little pressure on one converter bolt then rotated everything 180 degrees and put a little pressure on that converter bolt and it quickly jumped into place.
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Old 04-26-2019, 10:43:24 AM
Georgia SS Georgia SS is offline
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Default Re: mopar gurus needed

HI
Not trying to hijack the thread, some may relate to this, I was doing extended warranty inspections in South Georgia had a trip to dealership to look at a damaged in shipment used 4 cyl.kia engine, arrived to find only two young techs. with only their two plastic tray assortment of H.F. tools, knew this was not good, had pulled old engine and started to install the used engine, it would not fit up to converter so they got some threaded rod through the two bottom holes to make fit up pulled the boss of the side of the block, back out in floor, one look and saw replacement engine still had the standard shift pilot bearing, you could see the print of the bearing on converter hub, after 5 trips I had photos of all but the secretary, don't know how the finally resolved it, the way they operate probably put the chunk on with JB Weld.
Thanks if you read this far
Jimmy
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Old 04-26-2019, 11:54:42 AM
Tracy T Tracy T is offline
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Default Re: mopar gurus needed

damn georgia ss, cocacola out the snout burns!
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  #15  
Old 04-26-2019, 02:33:47 PM
cornbinder89 cornbinder89 is offline
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Default Re: mopar gurus needed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Tallman View Post
The flex plate is centered by the flange. The converter is centered by the pilot in the back of the crank and confirms the centerline with the crank. You can't have a pilot bushing and the converter at the same time. They both go in the same basic pocket. .
That is not how I remember it, the nose of the convertor sits in the recess inside the ring on the crankshaft flange, and is larger in diameter (compared to the input shaft on the trans, which is close to 3/4 or 7/8") the pilot bushing is small may be 1 1/16"x 7/8" or so and sits in bore further in on the crank. The converter nose sits in the recess less than an inch or so in depth, the input shaft on the std trans sits deeper and is longer.
The "hemi" 833 had a bigger input and may have used a different set-up on the crank, than the lighter 3 and 4 spd.
It has been a while, but I worked at a trans shop and had a Mopar with a 4 spd that I would swap between in O/D and close ratio 4 spd depending on what driving I was doing.
Did a lot of torqueflite and clutches on Mopar's and that is what I remember.
I searched my Mopar books for a good pic of the back of the crank, and they don't have one, the best I could do was this diagram of the auto. I placed an arrow where the pilot bushing goes and it is further in than the shown converter pilot. The pilot bushing will not interfere with the converter. Also the converter nose is different for early and late model engines, you can fit an early to a late, but the nose will need an adaptor ring on it, but you can't fit a late to an early, it will not fit the pilot on the crank.
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Old 04-27-2019, 08:14:45 AM
Tracy T Tracy T is offline
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Default Re: mopar gurus needed

this just gets stranger and stranger, when at operating tempatures no problem when cold problem comes back. I ran into this on a chevy van years ago coming out of florida, first fuel stop and go to restart and nothing. let it sit 30- 45 minutes and fire right up, the starter was expanding and locking itself up. later on i found if there was a waterhose around wet the starter down and go. but this dodge has me baffeled!
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Old 04-27-2019, 08:45:31 AM
cornbinder89 cornbinder89 is offline
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Default Re: Mopar Gurus Needed

I wonder if you are having an electrical issue and not a mechanical one. IIRC they use a relay to power the starter solenoid, a momentary drop of the feed to the starter would give you a similar problem as would a problem in the engine grounding of feed to the starter.
Had that happen on manlifts, starter would kick out while cranking and try and kick back in and grind.
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Old 04-27-2019, 09:09:22 AM
Tracy T Tracy T is offline
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Default Re: Mopar Gurus Needed

it does have some kind of relay on the fender well. engine has the ground cable from the battery bolted to the cylinder head. cornbinder you may be onto something, heat could affect the relays behavior and so could voltage. voltage would be higher after it has ran for a while with the alternator charging. never would have thought of that.
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Old 04-27-2019, 01:06:44 PM
cornbinder89 cornbinder89 is offline
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Default Re: Mopar Gurus Needed

The way I remember it, the key switch provides the 12 volt to one side of the relay coil and ground is made thru the neutral safety switch on the trans, not in neutral or park, no ground.
If the engine is moving about (bad mounts) it might be loosing ground.
1st step is to try cranking in neutral instead of park and see the problem goes away or changes.
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Old 04-27-2019, 09:22:18 PM
Tracy T Tracy T is offline
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Default Re: Mopar Gurus Needed

mounts on engine are rock solid, transmission mount i need to check.
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