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Magnetos, Ignition Coils and Spark Plugs Discussion about magnetos, buzz coils, spark plugs, ignitors and low tension coils.

Magnetos, Ignition Coils and Spark Plugs

Ronaldson and Tippett Type N Magneto Coupling and Timing


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  #21  
Old 01-14-2019, 10:56:26 PM
cobbadog cobbadog is offline
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Default Re: Ronaldson and Tippett Type N Magneto Coupling and Timing

I'm interested in the marks on the maggie if you could post them please.
On my farm pumper I align to the exhaust push rod instead of a mark on the engine.
I bet once it comes to life it will be big and bold as to what and where these marks are.
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  #22  
Old 01-15-2019, 12:12:11 AM
Pollardd Pollardd is offline
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Default Re: Ronaldson and Tippett Type N Magneto Coupling and Timing

Hi Eddie,
I did think of the fencing wire idea and was thinking errrr might be a bit wobbly. But your right skilled blokes like ourselves should be able to allow for that
I probably won't get to try it until the weekend. I'll let you know what the results are. My shim stock arrived in the post so I should be able to finish mounting the magneto as well if it isn't too humid.
BTW
I did a compression test the other day and got around 50 psi.
Do you have any idea what might be considered a reasonable value?

This may also be a topic for another thread.

Thanks
David
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  #23  
Old 01-15-2019, 09:52:46 PM
Pollardd Pollardd is offline
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Default Re: Ronaldson and Tippett Type N Magneto Coupling and Timing

Quote:
Originally Posted by cobbadog View Post
I'm interested in the marks on the maggie if you could post them please.
Hi Cobadog,
Here are the pics of the magneto.
I be surprised if the timing marks show up now, but I like surprises
Click image for larger version

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  #24  
Old 01-16-2019, 12:43:09 AM
cobbadog cobbadog is offline
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Default Re: Ronaldson and Tippett Type N Magneto Coupling and Timing

Those look like impulse timing marks. You wont use them for a direct drive.
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  #25  
Old 01-16-2019, 01:30:00 AM
eddie bedwell eddie bedwell is offline
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Default Re: Ronaldson and Tippett Type N Magneto Coupling and Timing

HI David,
I believe cobbadog is correct. Link is to a site--Bright Spark Magneto's-- with Lucas Magneto manuals on line for viewing. The graduations are shown in the Section on Impulse Couplings.

http://brightsparkmagnetos.com/libra...SR2,%20SR4.pdf

Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Eddie B.
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Old 01-16-2019, 06:16:24 PM
Pollardd Pollardd is offline
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Default Re: Ronaldson and Tippett Type N Magneto Coupling and Timing

That makes sense. I couldn't see how they would be of any use as they are completely covered when the Magneto is mounted.

I'll post again once I have made any progress.

I'll also create a new thread about my compression readings. Maybe that will attract the attention of someone who knows the details.

David

---------- Post added at 09:16:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:13:27 AM ----------

Great Manual as well!
Thanks
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Old 01-16-2019, 11:16:22 PM
cobbadog cobbadog is offline
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Default Re: Ronaldson and Tippett Type N Magneto Coupling and Timing

You will also need to time the magneto itself before timing it to your engine with the drive coupling.
When rotating the magneto in its correct direction as shown by the big arrow the magnetic flux (greatest resistance) should happen when your points are breaking. On the SR1 I know that I had to adjust the cam that opens the points so that the magneto worked at it's best. Then I timed the driven gear for the farm pumper engine.
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Old 01-17-2019, 12:47:17 AM
Pollardd Pollardd is offline
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Default Re: Ronaldson and Tippett Type N Magneto Coupling and Timing

Hi Cobbadog,
That is great information. I can feel the magnets resistance when I turn the magneto by hand. I assume that is what you are referring to. They old guy that reconditioned this magneto seemed to know what he was doing, so this step may already be done. He did ask me about the direction of rotation I needed and it was already correct. I haven't had the cover off the points yet. I figure I won't dick around with stuff until I need to. No point in me breaking it early
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  #29  
Old 01-17-2019, 05:27:03 AM
eddie bedwell eddie bedwell is offline
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Default Re: Ronaldson and Tippett Type N Magneto Coupling and Timing

Hi David,
50 lbs compression pressure should get you going.

Depending on several factors the compression you read can vary :-
engine hot or cold, rings oiled or dry.
Testing should be done with the throttle wide open as it will make a difference if it is closed--less pressure--the governor should hold the throttle open anyway, but, the choke must be open also.

Valves leaking--turn engine against compression and listen the inlet, exhaust ports for leaking valves and in the crankcase for leaking rings, worn scored bore etc.

If the engine has not run for some time the compression can seem down until oil seals the components again.

I have made engines myself that actually fire at about 1/3 the way down the intake stroke when there is negative pressure in the combustion chamber--they run well on both LPGas and petrol/gasoline.

That being said, too low a compression in your engine can affect startability, but 50 psi should get you a start.
Side valve engines generally have lower compression than overhead valve engines.

All I can think of for now--hope this helps.
Cheers,
Eddie B.
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  #30  
Old 01-17-2019, 07:30:00 AM
Pollardd Pollardd is offline
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Default Re: Ronaldson and Tippett Type N Magneto Coupling and Timing

Who knows how long since this engine has run. Many, Many years would be an estimate. I think it has had a few homes in a non running state where the owners have been big on hopes and small on action. (Based on theory and conjecture )
The previous owner gave me an estimate of 50 years but I don't know what he based this on. I suppose it is plausible as it is probably around 90 years old now. It has no serial number plate.
I squirted some Oil down the spark plug hole and it didn't make a difference to the compression. You could be right about running it for a while and lettings things seat in again. I have no idea what the bore or rings are like. I'll give it a go at 50. At least I have a before shot and I will know if I get any improvement. I'm going to pull the carbie apart and clean it out as my next sub project. I'll try the compression test again when I have that off.
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  #31  
Old 01-18-2019, 11:49:00 PM
cobbadog cobbadog is offline
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Default Re: Ronaldson and Tippett Type N Magneto Coupling and Timing

That is right the rsistance when you rotate the magneto. Since it has been set up by a repairer it should be good as far as the timing of the points to the magneto. Lucas is a simple magneto to revrse the direction. Some need a CW or a CCW rotation points base to rverse it and some will just work by resetting the cam.
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  #32  
Old 01-20-2019, 01:14:01 AM
Pollardd Pollardd is offline
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Default Re: Ronaldson and Tippett Type N Magneto Coupling and Timing

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddie bedwell View Post
Hi David,
12" dia should be 37.7" circum. (using calculator) divide by 360 = 0.105" /degree x 8 = 0.84" = approx. 27/32" I stand to be corrected.
OK I found time to accurately measure the dia of the flywheel and it is 11 1/2"
So 11.5 x Pi = 36.128 which is close to what I measured with a tape.

36.128 / 360 = 0.1003 (we can say 0.100")

To advance 8 degrees I'd need 8x .100 = .800
So I'll put a texta mark 0.8" In front of my TDC Mark.

I still can't find any other signs of any of the real timing marks.
I'll stamp these marks in once I'm confident they are in the correct place.

One thing I find is funny is I have been reading through the very wordy timing instructions (several times) and not once to they say to set this stuff on the compression stroke. It would be very easy to turn the crank to TDC and be on the exhaust stroke. They go into enough detail with other stuff like how many razor blades to set the spark plug gap
Maybe that is just a given.

The Maggy is mounted now and I managed to shim it to the correct height.
I was expecting I would need to make the right bolts but I found a the exact bolts I needed in an old pile of crap that was thrown in with something else I bought at a farm auction. The threads, heads length matched exactly with the bolts that hold the bracket onto the crankcase. Even the hackies on the hex heads look original . I guess you gotta get lucky sometimes.

Next I'll see if there is a spark and start with setting the timing.
Then will be the Carbi, Clean out the fuel tank and see if I can get to the valve adjustment which seem to be behind the fuel tank from the manual.
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  #33  
Old 01-21-2019, 01:24:58 AM
cobbadog cobbadog is offline
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Default Re: Ronaldson and Tippett Type N Magneto Coupling and Timing

Great progress with your project. Keep nibbling away at it and it will all come together.

I too would make my own marks once established they are correct.

As for the instruction manaul, it sounds like one of thos Haaynes workshop manauals where they tell you to disconnect the battery on every job even changing a tyre.
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  #34  
Old 01-21-2019, 07:26:38 PM
Pollardd Pollardd is offline
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Default Re: Ronaldson and Tippett Type N Magneto Coupling and Timing

I may have spoke to soon. Once I had the maggy mounted I gave the handle a good crank with the spark plug sitting against the head and no spark.
The guy I bought it from said it should be set up ready to go. He has been quite helpful and seems like a nice old guy.

I have some more diagnosis to do. Like make sure things are turning the right way and that nothing is fouling the points. All good practice I guess.

Let's see if I can zap myself while I'm trying to test it.
David
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  #35  
Old 01-24-2019, 01:38:00 AM
cobbadog cobbadog is offline
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Default Re: Ronaldson and Tippett Type N Magneto Coupling and Timing

Check your valves to see if the inlet opens before the exhaust for the correct direction. Make sure the magneto is well grounded to the engine and that the spark plug works and is held firmly against the engine and again well grounded. Don't rotate the magneto unless the HT can make a spark. Spinning the magneto with the HT in mid air will damage it.
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  #36  
Old 01-24-2019, 05:44:29 AM
Pollardd Pollardd is offline
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Default Re: Ronaldson and Tippett Type N Magneto Coupling and Timing

Hi Cobadog,
I'm not up to the valves yet. I figure not much point in worrying about that until I get a spark. I haven't heard that spinning a magneto with no connection can damage it. That is good to know.

The magneto is well grounded on nice clean metal. No paint or anything in between. It is a new spark plug of the recommended type. I'll have to double check the gap. I think the manual says 0.030" from memory.

I did try holding the HT cable next to the head but I didn't see any spark their either.

I'll do that and check the points are nice and clean and have the correct gap as well. I'll post again but more other jobs are getting in the way again
David
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Old 01-24-2019, 06:21:13 AM
eddie bedwell eddie bedwell is offline
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Default Re: Ronaldson and Tippett Type N Magneto Coupling and Timing

Hi David,
for my old engines I run the spark plug gap at around 0.018" or gapped with an old hacksaw blade. This puts less electrical strain on old magneto components.
Sometimes I have been known to run down 0.010" plug gap on really tired magneto's with success.

Also ensure you are using a copper core spark plug wire--modern carbon core resistance leads kill magneto's in quick time as well as reducing the spark available to the spark plug.
Old trick for poor performing magneto's is to rub some lead pencil carbon around the plug electrodes, at the gap, refit the plug without testing it as you will only get a few good sparkly sparks to get an engine going until the engine speed can take over generating a reasonable spark.

Some magneto's can improve their output after running a while and you do not need to do the lead pencil trick to get the initial start.

One wonders if the magneto is correct rotation for your engine as it sparked well before fitting--hopefully running with too large a gap or the lead not grounded or near earth--small gap, has not damaged it.

I suggest to never try and run with more than about 0.125" plug or wire gap when testing an old magneto.
Best Regards,
Eddie B.
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  #38  
Old 01-24-2019, 11:46:46 PM
cobbadog cobbadog is offline
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Default Re: Ronaldson and Tippett Type N Magneto Coupling and Timing

I run 0.020" - 0.025" for the plug gap. If you dont get spark across that gap then there is something wrong.
As Eddie suggested check that you r magneto is rotating the right way CW or CCW as this makes a big difference. Also your HT lead must be copper wire core not carbon. Check with a multimeter that the HT lead is properly connected to the output of the magneto and that the connection on the end is good. If your magneto produces spark but you have a faulty lead it just wont work.
Spak is obviously important but is the last thing I attend to when getting and engine to run. But that is just a personal thing, it makes no difference to the final outcome.
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Old 01-25-2019, 01:25:16 AM
Pollardd Pollardd is offline
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Default Re: Ronaldson and Tippett Type N Magneto Coupling and Timing

The guy that set up the magneto before I purchased it asked me which way I needed it to turn. He drew a texta arrow on the front of it indicating the direction of rotation he had set and it does match the direction the drive coupling turns. I noticed the other day there is an arrow on the original decal on the outside of the magneto. I'm pretty sure the decal arrow is in the opposite direction of the texta arrow. It looks like a copper HT wire to me.

I'll hopefully get some time over this long weekend to do some more tests and either get it working or come up with more questions

Thanks for everyone's interest.
David
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Old 01-26-2019, 12:29:30 AM
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Default Re: Ronaldson and Tippett Type N Magneto Coupling and Timing

UPDATE:
I checked the spark plug gap and it is .025" so I left that alone for now.
I took the cover off the magneto and the coil is new and looks perfect.
The condenser also looks new. The points, I'm not sure if they are new but they are very clean. I stuck a piece of paper between then and closed the gap to wipe off any oil that may have found its way onto the contacts.
As I rotated the shaft slowly by hand I could see a tiny spark as the points opened.
I then put a multi meter on the HT wire (yes it is copper) and found there was no connection. I removed the little pointed screw that spears into the HT wire and removed the wire from the cover. I checked the continuity from the spark plug connector back to the other end of the wire and it was good.
So this just left the pointy screw not sticking into the wire correctly. It looked to me like it wasn't going deep enough or was off to one side a bit. I poked a new hole 180 opposite the existing hole with a nail then refitted the cable into the cover with the screw. Bingo, I now get a connection from one end to the other.
I fitted the spark plug to then end of the cable and held it against the housing of the maggy and gave the shaft a turn. Bang I zapped myself
Probably the first time I have ever been happy about doing that.
I moved my hand down the wire a bit and turned the shaft again and this time there was a nice spark.

I was confused about the texta arrow drawn on by the previous owner. It is in the same direction as the arrow on the decal. Which is also the direction that the drive coupling turns when the engine is cranked.

So it should all be good now. I have a place to start with the timing and there is a spark.

Next I'm going to clean up the fuel system. I think I'll start a new thread for that as this one is getting fairly long and Fuel System will be off the topic.
I'll link both threads to each other so future readers interested in this particular engine can follow.
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