Antique Engines and Old Iron
[Home] - [HELP] - [Forums] - [Library] - [Photo Gallery] - [Groups] - [Classified Ads] - [Subscribe] - [Links] - [Books] - [Sponsors] -

Go Back   SmokStak > SmokStak® Antique Engine Community > Vintage Diesel and Oil Engines
Forgot Password? Join Us!

Notices

Vintage Diesel and Oil Engines Fairbanks Morse, Lister, Petter, Witte and other pump injected Diesel oil engines.

Vintage Diesel and Oil Engines

1-71 Detroit Diesel (GM)


this thread has 278 replies and has been viewed 32689 times

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #271  
Old 10-25-2018, 10:05:02 PM
K-Tron K-Tron is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Huntington, NY
Posts: 1,767
Thanks: 840
Thanked 867 Times in 603 Posts
Default Re: 1-71 Detroit Diesel (GM)

Al, The military put two bypass blowers on the 6V53TIB 350hp engines. I installed a bypass blower endplate on my 4-53T blower, it was supposed to add 7 horsepower by reducing the drag of the blower while the turbocharger was working. I noticed no difference from the factory 170hp Brazilian 4-53T used in my truck. I transformed my green 4-53T into a silver 4-53T during the rebuild. The only silver aspect I did not add was the aluminum valve cover and the bypass blower. Instead I opted for larger injectors and a natural blower. Better scavenging and more low end grunt is more useful in a medium duty truck than an additional 7hp on the top end.

Jim, The bypass blower was part of the "Silver 53" package that had been released in 1985. It included a harmonic balancer on the front of the crankshaft, a bypass blower, upgraded turbocharger, cross-head pistons, short port liners, hardened blower drive shaft, hardened timing gears, upgraded injectors, a cast aluminum valve cover with silicone seal and a fancy looking silver paint job.

Chris

Last edited by K-Tron; 10-25-2018 at 10:30:22 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to K-Tron For This Post:
Sponsored Links
  #272  
Old 10-26-2018, 01:09:01 AM
Vanman Vanman is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Mission Viejo, California
Posts: 5,036
Thanks: 7,090
Thanked 2,191 Times in 1,491 Posts
Default Re: 1-71 Detroit Diesel (GM)

Without the bypass blower, one would expect the turbo compressor to start driving the blower at some point, putting mechanical power back into the engine. At the expense of some boost pressure, of course.
Reply With Quote
  #273  
Old 10-26-2018, 02:00:05 AM
The Diesel Doctor The Diesel Doctor is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Lahaina, Maui, Hawaii
Posts: 372
Thanks: 200
Thanked 524 Times in 207 Posts
Default Re: 1-71 Detroit Diesel (GM)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanman View Post
Without the bypass blower, one would expect the turbo compressor to start driving the blower at some point, putting mechanical power back into the engine. At the expense of some boost pressure, of course.
That would seem logical. The blower is pretty much a positive displacement air pump. The blower turns twice the speed of the engine so when the 6-71 TIB is turning 2500 RPM the blower would be running at 5000 RPM. It is working against the boost pressure in the air box. You have two sources of air and maybe it is more efficient to run using the turbo only. The safest place to be when your blower is turning 5000 RPM is at 45 degrees to any corner of the engine. AL
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to The Diesel Doctor For This Post:
  #274  
Old 10-26-2018, 01:46:02 PM
Vanman Vanman is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Mission Viejo, California
Posts: 5,036
Thanks: 7,090
Thanked 2,191 Times in 1,491 Posts
Default Re: 1-71 Detroit Diesel (GM)

Yikes. My 671 mounts horizontal, amidships, under the frame with the blower immediately under the floor. Under where the kitchen will be (or is that the galley?). Maybe I should put a Kevlar blanket over it!

The turbocharged EMDs have no blower besides the turbo. Instead the turbo is driven through a gear train (to get the speed up) and an overrunning clutch. As the engine takes more load, the turbine makes more power, relieving the engine of some of the load to drive the blower. With more load the turbine will accelerate the blower beyond the speed of the gear drive, unloading it completely, and making boost in the process.

I always wanted to adapt a 6-110 (with the gear driven centrifugal blower) to operate just like this. Then lay it on it's side and stuff it under the floor of my bus.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Vanman For This Post:
  #275  
Old 01-05-2019, 01:32:32 AM
The Diesel Doctor The Diesel Doctor is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Lahaina, Maui, Hawaii
Posts: 372
Thanks: 200
Thanked 524 Times in 207 Posts
Default Re: 1-71 Detroit Diesel (GM)

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_1978.jpg
Views:	53
Size:	133.3 KB
ID:	325780

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_1984.jpg
Views:	54
Size:	84.0 KB
ID:	325781

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_1983.jpg
Views:	52
Size:	75.9 KB
ID:	325782 Customer complained that his Detroit 4-53 in his Grove crane was wet stacking. Upon inspection and disassembly found a crack in the cylinder head which had let coolant into #2 cylinder which was on the compression stroke. When the engine was started there was not enough space in that cylinder and it bent the connecting rod. The wet stacking was caused by a broken wrist pin retainer on #3 piston Even with these faults the engine had power and a clean exhaust. IT was manufactured in 1979. From the dates stamped on the crankshaft bearings these were the original parts. Doing an inframe with new cylinder kits, rod and head. Maybe it will run another 40 years. AL
Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to The Diesel Doctor For This Post:
  #276  
Old 01-05-2019, 10:34:58 AM
cornbinder89 cornbinder89 is offline
Registered-II
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Lyman, Iowa
Posts: 745
Thanks: 42
Thanked 359 Times in 254 Posts
Default Re: 1-71 Detroit Diesel (GM)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanman View Post
Without the bypass blower, one would expect the turbo compressor to start driving the blower at some point, putting mechanical power back into the engine. At the expense of some boost pressure, of course.
Doesn't work like that. The blower is a positive displacement pump, so when you increase the pressure on the "suction side" it still increase the pressure at the same rate as it would naturally asperated, so the load on the blower drive will increase as the inlet pressure goes up, at some point it will snap the drive quill. Put another way, if a fixed displacement pump has a 2:1 pressure rise across it, it will still raise the pressure at the same rate when the inlet is above atmosphic, but the load to do so will be higher, as the inlet air is now more dense.
It is why the factory built the bypass blower, and decreased the blower speed on turbo engines.
The (later) 110 used the same blower as the 6-71 but with a different drive ratio, 1/3rd faster to feed the bigger engine.

Last edited by cornbinder89; 01-05-2019 at 11:11:31 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to cornbinder89 For This Post:
  #277  
Old 01-05-2019, 01:25:08 PM
cornbinder89 cornbinder89 is offline
Registered-II
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Lyman, Iowa
Posts: 745
Thanks: 42
Thanked 359 Times in 254 Posts
Default Re: 1-71 Detroit Diesel (GM)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanman View Post
I always wanted to adapt a 6-110 (with the gear driven centrifugal blower) to operate just like this. Then lay it on it's side and stuff it under the floor of my bus.
GM tried the centrifugal blower 110 in trucks and found it had a tendency to snap blower drives when shifts were made. They do best in constant or relatively constant speed applications.
Over running or two speed drives have been used successfully but can be a maintance headache . I could see them work OK in the EMD where minimal speed changes happen. One problem is the relatively fast speed needed to drive the centrifugal compressor, the friction losses remain in the geartrain even with the compressor "over running".
GM went with the roots type blower on later 110's and found it worked well.
There is some interest again in turbo-compounding where the turbine is connected to the crankshaft to return power to the crank at speed.
The 110 is kind of an orphan so finding one and the parts to adapt to a vehicle is going to be tough. I looked into putting one in a truck once. The weight and size of a K Cummins with the output of an L10!
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to cornbinder89 For This Post:
  #278  
Old 01-05-2019, 01:59:12 PM
The Diesel Doctor The Diesel Doctor is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Lahaina, Maui, Hawaii
Posts: 372
Thanks: 200
Thanked 524 Times in 207 Posts
Default Re: 1-71 Detroit Diesel (GM)

Great info. Did you work at the factory? I have two injector timing tools for the 6-110. One was for the engine with the roots and the other was for the centrifugal set up. Do you know why they did that? AL
Reply With Quote
  #279  
Old 01-05-2019, 05:11:10 PM
cornbinder89 cornbinder89 is offline
Registered-II
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Lyman, Iowa
Posts: 745
Thanks: 42
Thanked 359 Times in 254 Posts
Default Re: 1-71 Detroit Diesel (GM)

No I never worked at GM. PIE tried running the 6-110 over the rockies and had multiple blower drive failures. I read about it in Wheels of Time.
I put a bid in on a 6-110 but was out bid. It was the newer Roots type blower engine.

It can be hard to wrap ones mind about what goes on inside a 2 stroke. Even turbo'd, almost all the air passes thru the blower lobes, when the bypass is open, All the bypass does is provide another "leak off" path so the blower isn't producing any pressure rise across it. The air doesn't go from the turbo thru the bypass passage, rather it passes thru the blower but no pressure difference between the inlet and outlet.
I toy'ed around with different modifications to 6-71's as I own two that are in trucks.
I don't know all the differences between the Roots and Centrifugal blower engines. My guess is the difference in the injectors has to do with how much air can be provided at different speeds, My guess is the Roots has more air at lower speeds than the centrifugal, so the injectors need to account for this.
The Roots blower is the same between the 110 and 71 but with different drive gears (larger and faster ratio). It should be possible to make a bypass blower for the 110 with -71 parts.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to cornbinder89 For This Post:
Reply

Bookmarks


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

F o r u m Jump

Similar Threads Chosen at Random
Thread Thread Starter F o r u m Replies Last Post
1-71 Detroit Diesel (GM) The Diesel Doctor Vintage Diesel and Oil Engines 3 05-21-2016 05:30:26 PM
Detroit Diesel 8-71T Oil in Air Box Tim in Mexico Vintage Diesel and Oil Engines 11 10-10-2015 08:19:25 PM
Detroit Diesel 671 DaytonEngines Vintage Diesel and Oil Engines 4 08-23-2014 08:49:06 PM
Detroit Diesel Elec Power DDC25U with Diesel Perkins Engine Manuals? MP5ForTheWin Generators & Electric Motors General Discussion 4 08-14-2012 12:34:30 AM
Gen. set wtd. Detroit Diesel Denny Foster Generators & Electric Motors General Discussion 0 11-13-2000 10:06:06 PM


Use "Ctrl" mouse wheel to change screen size.
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:15:36 PM.

Smokstak and Enginads site search!


All use is subject to our TERMS OF SERVICE
SMOKSTAK® is a Registered Trade Mark - A Community of Antique Engine Enthusiasts
Copyright © 2000 - 2016 by Harry Matthews P.O. Box 5612 - Sarasota, FL 34277