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Wisconsin Engines Single cylinder up to V4 engines.

Wisconsin Engines

Strange Points Related Problem With a VH4D


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  #1  
Old 12-27-2017, 09:42:40 AM
tima tima is offline
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Default Strange Points Related Problem With a VH4D

I have a bobcat m610 skidloader on propane.
I bought this kind of 3rd owner and the 1st owner was a small bean company.
I did a tune up consisting of plugs,points,condenser , you get the idea.
It was running fine before this and after i did the tune up.
This was in the late fall so still fairly warm out.
Problem started when it got down in the 20's , it would hard start , run rough and rich and really suck the propane.
I attributed this to the propane system so i rebuilt the vaporizer and carb.
This was not done until spring so temps were warmer and i thought that it fixed the problem.
Next cold snap same problem.
Loader doesn't get used alot.
I had put around 20 hours on the machine and found the new point set almost burnt out.

Put a new set of points in and solved the problem.
I also added a ignition resistor and it has been over 100 hours and many years and the points are just fine.

So the other day did some maintanence and decided to remove the resistor to see what would happen and guess what.
Very cold here and it started running like crap.

Okay now to my question.
I know there has to be a dropping resistance to the coil on point system ignitions , usually as a resistor,resistance wire or a coil with the resistor built in.
This thing had none.
The coil looks original , the wiring harness is untouched so i know there was no resistance wire in it.
I have the parts manual and service manual and there is nothing that shows as a ballast resistor for the ignition.

How did this thing run for the 30 some years that i did not own it.

Does anyone know if Wisconsin used a self ballasted coil.

I have it fixed but this one baffles me.

Any ideas.

Thanks
Tim
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Old 12-27-2017, 10:08:07 AM
Mitch Malcolm Mitch Malcolm is offline
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Default Re: Strange points related problem with a vh4d

Tim on the ones I worked on (std gasoline models) there were not any external resistors so yes internal resistor coil ..
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Old 12-27-2017, 10:32:28 AM
tima tima is offline
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Default Re: Strange points related problem with a vh4d

Thanks Mitch
I just cant get how it ran all those years with no problems.
Guess i need to see if there are any numbers left on the coil and see if it shows up in the parts book.
It could of been changed.
A freind of mine bought it first and i know he did not do anything to it.
I even went and helped him get it started and loaded for his trip home.
And the original owner probably never used it in the winter months.

It would run fine when it was warm out

Have you installed any of the pentronix units and what do you have to say about them.
If i put one in i shouldn't need the resistor , correct.

Thanks
Tim
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Old 12-27-2017, 11:31:27 AM
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Default Re: Strange Points Related Problem With a VH4D

I think your problem is part quality. I have yet to find a set of points that are not cheap crap. It is an obsolete technology and a parts store sells very few of them anymore. All parts stores will give you an option for higher quality parts on say a 2010 Ford truck but on a 30 year old engine, probably one option. My theory is the bean counters figure someone still running something this old is not going to pay for a quality part. And most times they are right. I have a 1996 Dodge work car and prefer to buy economy parts because the next stop for it is the crusher after it finally quits. I would put electronic ignition on it and never hassle with points again.
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Old 12-27-2017, 12:10:27 PM
beezerbill beezerbill is offline
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Default Re: Strange Points Related Problem With a VH4D

I have a Pentronix unit in my ancient gasoline VG4D-powered John Deere skidsteer and it works fine. Almost impossible to adjust points in this thing due to the lousy distributor location. I can't remember specifically but I think it calls for a ballast resistor. I run this thing through the winter and it works just fine even when it is about 0 degrees out.

Huge variation in points quality - some exist as stage props to have something under the blister pack so it looks good hanging on the display rack; these only work good for liberating money from your wallet and burn up in about a day. I've seen it. Others, like the NAPA high-end points, work and last like good, old fashion points used to work.
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Old 12-27-2017, 12:22:41 PM
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Default Re: Strange Points Related Problem With a VH4D

Yes parts quality **china** is suspect. A friend has a skid steer with the VH4D and it also ran crappy. Hard starting etc. A dodgy condenser was the cause and we went through two new ones and the same thing. I went home and found a 35 year old condenser from a Honda bike and it runs like new.

Same thing on the VE4 on my log splitter. Another 35 year old bike condenser fixed it right up. That one's been running with it located in a little control box with the stop switch 5 feet from the engine for 10 years.
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Old 12-27-2017, 01:30:38 PM
DCamp DCamp is offline
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Default Re: Strange Points Related Problem With a VH4D

Yes those cheap points are crap. I only buy HD vented and they are not much more. Any time I order points and forget to give the part # they will send me the cheap ones. I did have to change my coil and put on a ballast resistor. That also helped stop burning points. In the winter I have to put gas antifreeze in all the time as the gas today is garbage.
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Old 12-27-2017, 01:42:50 PM
Gene Williams Gene Williams is offline
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Default Re: Strange Points Related Problem With a VH4D

I agree with changing the condenser, we have had 2 skidsteers that ran like crap until we changed condensers. The one guy even wanted the engine rebuilt because it ran so poorly but the condenser saved him a bunch of money.
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Old 12-27-2017, 05:43:44 PM
tima tima is offline
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Default Re: Strange Points Related Problem With a VH4D

Thanks for the responses guys.

I agree with the junk points and hate to say it but the first set i put in were eklinds from napa and i told my self before to never buy that brand.
Had nothing but trouble with anything electrical from napa under that brand name.

The set i have in it now came from our bobcat dealer and who knows who made them.

My problem is that it does not want to run right without the resistor when cold.
My curiosity always gets the best of me and i will get it figured out.

I am leaning toward the coil got changed at some time and is not the correct one.

Anyway it has been running fine with the resistor for many years now.
I can't leave it alone if its not broke. HA HA

Tim
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Old 12-28-2017, 11:31:48 AM
Mitch Malcolm Mitch Malcolm is offline
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Default Re: Strange Points Related Problem With a VH4D

I would call pertronix and follow there instructions with the exception install a separate ground wire from the dist to the engine block... Thats what I would do
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Old 06-28-2018, 07:52:30 AM
rwk rwk is offline
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Default Re: Strange Points Related Problem With a VH4D

I put a VW Bosch coil on a newly aquired VH4D on a hydro seeded and gapped the points to about .016, didnt have any info on it when I got it and we
were trying to get it running, fired right up, has run approx 10 hours so far, now I'am trying to get charging system working,25 amp stator style, believe reg and rectifier are bad, anyone have a fix or work around?
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Old 06-28-2018, 08:15:07 AM
I like oldstuff I like oldstuff is offline
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Default Re: Strange Points Related Problem With a VH4D

Like this?
If so, check for continuity between the two wires on the alternator. Nothing to ground. If that's good, go on ebay and find a hefty single phase motorcycle regulator/rectifier for under $20. Two wires from the stator to the rectifier and you then have ~14.5 volts output. Fuse the output at ~20 amps to protect it.
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Old 06-28-2018, 06:03:07 PM
rwk rwk is offline
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Default Re: Strange Points Related Problem With a VH4D

Ok, the stator is good, passed both test for continuity, my stator has 3 wires, do I not use the third wire? its red, the other 2 are black assume those are the AC out to reg/rect. Found some Kohler regs rated at 25 amps are those adequate?
Thanks
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Old 06-28-2018, 08:32:26 PM
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Default Re: Strange Points Related Problem With a VH4D

You likely have a 3 phase system. *If all three wires are the same color.
So get a 3 phase bike reg/rec and you're good to go.

Something like this.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Motorcycle-...kAAOSwhdZaVRUP

https://www.ebay.com/itm/US-Ship-Mot...UAAOSwU9xUMXLD

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Motorcycle-...QAAOSwcj1aN1TG

https://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-Motorcy...wAAOSwmNlZZe9D



Yellows to the stator
Red to battery
Green to ground
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Old 06-29-2018, 07:06:37 AM
rwk rwk is offline
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Default Re: Strange Points Related Problem With a VH4D

No, 2 black wires and 1 red, think only the blacks are the AC out of stator, what is the red one for? it was connected to the rectifier white wire, think it should have been connected to the red on regulator. PO had done some fixes, plug was burned to rect. and missing to reg. had some twisted wire and tape repairs. From the repair manual looks like 1 of stator wire goes to regulator assume red to red, then reg and rect are tied together? black to white then to amp meter, no colors listed on the schematic so I'm going by plugs which have color codes.
Like you say think a three wire reg/rect would work just what to do with 3rd stator wire?
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Old 08-26-2018, 08:41:15 AM
RollinK RollinK is offline
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Default Re: Strange Points Related Problem With a VH4D

Following, I'm having the same stator issue with a VH4D. Just acquired this engine, originally had the separate regulator/rectifier set up. Three wires coming off the stator, 2 black and 1 white. Getting a solid 30v AC off the 2 black stator wires. Connected them to the AC inputs on a Kohler 25a Rectifier, no output from the rectifier and the stator wires become hot very quickly. As several other have asked, does anyone know what the 3rd (white) stator wire does or should it be connected to anything?

Ohmed out the stator and it seems good, I'd really like to get this motor charging and could use some help on this one. Thanks Rollin
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