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Scale Model Engineering Steam, gas and hot air model engines, tractors, trains and accessories. Machining and milling castings.

Scale Model Engineering

1/3 Scale CASE 65


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  #1  
Old 05-03-2009, 02:32:47 PM
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Default 1/3 Scale CASE 65

Well I finally got some decent shots for you of 1/3 scale CASE 65 we have been working on for the past 4 years. My grandson and I went to a small show in Goldsboro, NC and set the toys out for a show and tell. I will be glad when the engine is operational. I like looking at it for it brings back so many great memories of when I had a 1/4 scale CASE, but I am ready to make some new ones. I still have the governor, feed water heater and gear guards to finish up. The steam lubricator is finished, but I need to make the mounting bracket.

I am fairly new to this forum and have read many threads regarding the many aspects of model steam engineering. Most of the interest seems to be towards the 1/2-5/8 scale. I can understand why because you have the opportunity to physically ride the traction engine in some comfort and really have the feel of being a part of the machine. A most desirable situation. For me it will be the seat mounted on the back as the picture shows. It certainly brings me a lot closer to the engine than riding on a two wheel cart behind the engine as I did with the 1/4 scale. I can understand the need for the 1/4 scale and smaller sizes because of size limitations and one's resources to machine tools, storage area and transportation. Having said all that, I have run across only one thread thus far relating to a 1/3 scale CASE that someone bought and was seeking information about his purchase. Are the 1/3 scale models sort of the grey area so-to-speak ? Is it a lack of decent castings and drawings to work with ? Is it the thought that if I am going to build a 1/3 scale, I might as well go the next step and build something I can actually ride on ? I have the impression that everyone is willing to share what they have and what resources they may have and that is why there are so many 1/2 scale models. The sharing of resources is a big drawing card in my book and is why I enjoy this hobby so much. You folk's are great and I have learned so much through this forum the short while I have been reading it.

One of the major reasons for starting this thread is to offer up my experiences in building my 1/3 scale CASE 65. I ran into many obstacles during my fabrication and machining of the component parts for my engine. I would like to help anyone out there that might be involved with a similar project to help them avoid some of the pitfalls that I fell into, especially if you are building a 1/3 scale CASE 65. I have hundreds of pictures of the various machine tool setups and lots of notes for resources.

The sawmill pictured is what I built 9 years ago based on the 1/4 scale sawmill project featured in Modeltech magazine. The plans are the same ones that Dick Smith is using to build his awesome 1/2 scale model sawmill.

Happy machining and please be safe in all that you do. It was truly a said story of the recent farm accident of the gentlemen who was hit in the head with a piece of metal. My heart and prayers go out to all those concerned. May God Bless all of you. Till later, Larry (Laurence for a very special friend)
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Old 05-03-2009, 03:48:12 PM
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Default Re: 1/3 Scale CASE 65

Id love to see everything you have done. Im still in the build ing of my 1/3 and am loving every minute of it. Its mostly a winter project but I fit some things in here and there. Welded boiler or riveted?
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Old 05-03-2009, 04:12:37 PM
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Default Re: 1/3 Scale CASE 65

Larry
I wish I could have come down to Goldsboro to see your Case and sawmill, they look great! I guess I will have to wait until Denton so that I can see it run
Brad
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Old 05-03-2009, 04:46:54 PM
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Default Re: 1/3 Scale CASE 65

Just a question/observation.... the tread bars on the rear wheels. Are they pointing in the wrong direction?
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Old 05-03-2009, 05:30:00 PM
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Default Re: 1/3 Scale CASE 65

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1/4case View Post
Id love to see everything you have done. Im still in the build ing of my 1/3 and am loving every minute of it. Its mostly a winter project but I fit some things in here and there. Welded boiler or riveted?
The boiler was totally welded. What rivets you see are for effect only. I had to have some to keep a little flavor of a traction engine. All the rivets you see are in a non-pressure area. All the welding was done via TIG welding process by me. All the materials used are "Pressure Vessel Quality" type steel. The boiler will be inspected by the NC Boiler folks and issued a license as a "Special" boiler.

1/4 Scale, as far as sharing all that I have, let me know where you are at and we can start from there and then catch up. I can send info via email unless there is an interest of others on this forum to have some of that information also. MY email: lrdufour@att.net

As far as the rear wheel grouters are concerned; yes they are pointing the wrong way. I put the right wheel on the left side and vice-versa. I would like to say it was a test to see if anyone noticed, but that is what happens when you get in a hurry to load and go someplace. Thank you for the observation. Anyone, Please do not hesitate to point out anything or make constructive comments, how else can we learn. Till later, Larry
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Old 05-04-2009, 09:18:37 AM
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Default Re: 1/3 Scale CASE 65

We have been in contact for a while. I just wanted to be sure you were the same Larry. I am the kid you turned onto the casting last year.

Larry has a lot of good info. for those that want to build an engine of this size. It would be great if he could/would build a running story in a magazine such as E&E or even on the web. He may not want to advertise his source of a few items but the actual build is very interesting
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Old 05-04-2009, 09:21:18 AM
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Default Re: 1/3 Scale CASE 65

Laurence (Larry),

Can I assume that you get the rear seat trailing behind the water tender while your lovely better half takes the helm?

Nice looking engine. Is that a stainless steel preheater? As for work in progress photos and commentary, I for one would thoroughly enjoy it, as I'm sure others would also. So, please by all means, post away.

And thanks again for sending me the ModelTec information with accompanied hand sketches and photos of your sawmill. It is a real gem!

Lawrence
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Old 05-04-2009, 08:26:20 PM
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Default Re: 1/3 Scale CASE 65

Beautiful job Larry

You need to post a close up of the Case eagle like the one you sent me. It is pretty neat.

Dick
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Old 05-04-2009, 09:16:08 PM
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Default Re: 1/3 Scale CASE 65

The posted image is the eagle that Dick is referring too. About year ago, while in Ohio for a visit with friends and family, I drove by a house where David Watkins lives in Tipp City,Ohio. He does all sorts of cravings. He happened to have an eagle with a fish in its talons on display. After a brief discussion of what I would like to have and 6 months later, the eagle that you are viewing now resides with me. As much as I would like to call it "Ole Ab", I have named him "Tool Bit". Till Later, Larry
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Old 05-04-2009, 09:54:44 PM
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Default Re: 1/3 Scale CASE 65

Please excuse my spelling at times. English was not one of my strong suits. I was always to busy playing with my Erector set, chemistry set, lincoln logs and plastic bricks instead of studying for my spelling tests. I think the word I was looking for was "carvings" not cravings. Larry
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Old 05-04-2009, 10:06:48 PM
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Default Re: 1/3 Scale CASE 65

Lawrence,
Yes, I have the makings for a stainless steel pre-heater. There will be six 1/2" OD stainless tubes inside the shell that you see in the picture. I also made the contractor box out of stainless. I wanted it to last for a while. Till later, Larry (Laurence)
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Old 05-06-2009, 09:28:16 PM
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Default Re: 1/3 Scale CASE 65

05/06/09 The beginning of building a 1/3 scale CASE started almost 5 years ago after selling the ¼ scale CASE that I had built 10 years prior. Selling the little CASE was probably one of the worst things I have ever done and the beginning of my “great” depression. Anyway, upon receiving the blueprints for the 1/3 scale CASE, they looked very familiar. I found a set of blue prints for a Cole Power 2 inch scale CASE that my father had purchased in the late 50’s. Upon comparison, sure enough, the line drawings were exactly the same. The originator of the 4-inch scale CASE had taken Charles Arnold of Tiny Power drawings and copied them and then multiplied all the dimensions by two to come up with a set of drawings for the 4-inch scale traction engine. The original 2-inch scale drawings were dated 11/20/53. So, starting in January of 2004 I began redrawing the 50-year-old drawings. I generated over 200 separate piece part drawings and many assembly and sub-assembly drawings. After about a year and a half I purchased the castings and was ready to rock and roll. I was not very far into the project when it became quit apparent that my drawings and the castings were not matching and I was starting to machine by the seat of my pants. It was also very apparent that the pattern maker had not interrupted the drawings correctly and major mistakes were made in several castings that caused major problems down the line. I will share later how I resolved those problems.

I bought the 1/3 scale CASE castings because they had been around for so long. One would think that the issues that I encountered should have been resolved years ago. In retrospect, I wish I had purchased the ¼ scale Reeves Cross Compound engine that Hartland Scale Models had available at the time I was ready to purchase castings.

Next posting, I will share some thoughts on my boiler design and construction.

Till later, Larry
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Old 05-07-2009, 09:31:11 AM
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Default Re: 1/3 Scale CASE 65

I can understand your frustrations with the discrepancies between the drawings and castings. Not to defend the vendor, but these sorts of problems are too be expected to some degree ( but not to a large degree ) when building steam engines, etc. from casting sets.

The first problem is scaling. I have found that it is not really possible make a "working" model to exact scale. Things like boiler shells, standard material sizes, fasteners, etc. frequently do not scale down exactly. I have also found that things don't sometimes look right, even if they can be made to exact scale. For example, a wheel spoke sometimes looks to skinny or might not the strong enough if to exact scale so I sometimes end up going to a bit larger size to make it look right. When I scale something I try to make it look as authentic as possible, but it is always a compromise. I think it is more important to make it look as prototypical as possible by using square headed bolts if used on the prototype or heavy hex nuts for things like cylinder heads instead of plated hex nuts from Farm and Fleet.

Sometimes compromises need to be made in the pattern making process to make the item practical and economical to produce. The casting might be simplified to eliminate a core or make it easier to cast. We would all like high quality investment castings from which to make our models, but it isn't going to happen. There are just a handful of foundries left that will make castings for our hobby projects for an affordable price. I am fortunate that I can make my own patterns but I also have to work within the skill set and the equipment that I have which sometimes limits what I do from what would be the ideal solution. It would cost a small fortune these days if one had to have patterns made.

It is not always easy to go from a drawing to pattern. You have to add in draft and compensate for shrinkage. Once that is done you have to add allowances for machined surfaces. So the casting frequently ends up quite different from drawing. Machining the casting presents another set of problems. Not to sound to melodramatic, but casting is like a diamond in the rough. Buried somewhere in that chunk of iron, is a finished part. You have to look at the drawing and the casting and go back forth to figure out the starting coordinates for machining the part. So you have to get into the mind of the designer and patternmaker. Then comes the flaws introduced at the foundry. When I went to machine the valve chest for my Baker I was about ready to start in when I noticed that a long round core had sagged a bit during casting. If I had started in as called for the drawing the casting would have been ruined. I had a generous machining allowance on the part, so I was able to shift the bore a bit to catch the high and low spots and thus salvage the part. So if you look real close one can see the valve stem is not exactly in the middle of the chest. But it is buried in a place that you can't really see it unless you disassemble the engine. So rather than chuck an expensive casting into the dumpster and wait for another one to be cast, I was able to proceed.

Commercial castings are backed up armies of engineers that check, rechecked and iterated until just right. Hobby steam castings sets and drawings are typically produced by one guy in his garage. So while we try to make it as right as possible and share the work with others, it obviously won't be perfect.

Besides, working these problems out and trying to figure how they did things in the old days is what I enjoy most about the hobby.

Dick

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Old 05-07-2009, 02:03:39 PM
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Default Re: 1/3 Scale CASE 65

Dick, I totally concur with everything you have said. I thank you for taking your valuable time to state what a model maker may incur when working with castings from private individuals. Your input should be very valuable for someone who is just getting started in the hobby of scale model making. I have encountered many of the situations that you have mentioned and have applied the techniques to have described to work my way through the machining processes of many projects and especially my CASE project. What you have described has been part of the challenge of this hobby for me over the years.

Let me site three instances for you that I encountered with my 1/3 scale CASE. Maybe this will give you a flavor of where I am coming from. 1] The rear wheel bull gear weighs in at 57 pounds before machining. When I had machined it to its specified dimension, it weighs in at a mere 26 pound. Should I have had to machine every surface and remove 31 pounds of cast iron to bring the gear to size? 2] The smoke box door and frame hinge points did not match up. See picture below. There was no way that any shifting or realigning would have brought these to pieces together in a workable situation. I wound up making my own frame to match the cast door. 3] The bearing cap area of the engine frame on the eccentric side did not have any material to drill and tap into in order to attach the bearing cap. See picture below. So I machined off the unusable material and scab a piece of cast iron onto the engine frame so I had something to bolt the bearing cap too. These are only a few of the problems I encountered with this build. It is things like this I would think would have been corrected years ago. (I did contact the vendor about these problems and there was no reply.)

I wish I had known about this forum earlier, so I could have presented what I was encountering to all of you to see how anyone else might have solved these deficiencies.

It is my intent with this thread to present what I encountered and how I went about to solve the problems. It is NOT my intent to insult or degrade anyone. I only want to present the problems I encountered and how I over came them. I certainly wish I had this kind of information when I was doing my build. Hopefully others will not feel all alone as I have with the building of their 1/3 scale CASE.

Over the years I have come to realize that many of the models that are offered up for us to build have very little documentation associated with them. Most of the information is in the head of the model maker and he/she only puts down on paper the critical dimensions and special notes to keep the project going. I have been there and done that myself. In many cases this is what we buy and it is up to us to fill in the blanks. I find this to be challenging and true model making.

Dick, you are at the other end of the spectrum. Not only will you have an awesome product for the modelers to work with, but drawings and information second to none. I wish I were in the market of a ½ scale sawmill, so I could have the pleasure of working with your castings and drawings.

Thank you for your insights and the time that you share with all of us. God Bless and till later, Larry
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Old 05-09-2009, 04:00:32 AM
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Default Re: 1/3 Scale CASE 65

The Boiler ! The heart and soul of any portable or traction engine. When built right and maintain properly it will give years of service. When approaching the design of a model boiler it is very important to remember that water, steam and thermodynamics do not scale down. There is a series of engineering calculations one must go through to determine the parameters that the boiler must be built too. Maryland has a very good section in their Boiler Codes pertaining to model boilers.
Here is the link: http://www.dsd.state.md.us/comar/09/09.12.01.33.htm This will give you an excellent over view of what is entailed in designing a model boiler and what the boiler inspector will be looking for.

I must say that boiler design and construction should be left to those who are experienced and have the proper welding credentials. “Pressure Vessel Quality” (PVQ) materials must be bought and used through out the boiler construction. The weld joints must be properly prepared and welded in a special manner to obtain full pentration. Bob Oliver of Oliver’s Boiler and Jonas Stutzman of Middlefield, Ohio would be excellent starting points to have a professionally build boiler made for your scale steam project.

Knowing all that I still decided to pursue building my own boiler based on my 45 years of machining and welding experience. I had already jumped through most of the hoops when I fabricated the boiler for my ¼ scale CASE.

The original boiler design for the 1/3 CASE was based on a flanged and riveted boiler. These boilers are a thing of the past and North Carolina Board of Labor would not begin to work with me on such a construction or even approve its operation. So a new boiler had to be designed for my project. I had a piece of 10” seamless pressure tested schedule 40 pipe of the right materials just begging to be used as a boiler. So with that piece of pipe and the engineering calculations I started to develop a design for my 1/3 scale CASE. I discussed my design with the NC Board of Labor Boiler Division Bureau Chief; several professional boiler makers and Bill Bondie, a federal boiler inspector, of Iron Horse Water Treatment, Inc. Bill was most helpful in the layout and sizing of the cleanout plugs. His comments and suggestions about operation and maintenance should provide a long life for my new boiler. (I will share those comments in another posting.) What I am suggesting is too gather as much information as you can so you can have a well-conceived and sound design. I purchased the necessary PVQ materials and cutting, drilling and weld joint preparation began. I used the TIG (tungsten inert gas) method for all my weld joints. There is no weld spatter to clean up and you can control the heat of the weld very precisely. After completing the boiler, my son and nephew helped me to do an initial hydro test. The initial hydro test must be twice the calculated maximum operating pressure. My maximum operating pressure will be 150 pounds. Several pin hole leaks showed up as we kept elevating the pressure but we finally got the boiler to hold the required 300 pounds for a prolong period of time. Prior to this hydro test, I did contact our area boiler inspector to see if he wanted to be involved with the process. He said,” call me when you are ready to fire for the first time and I will check it out then”. If all goes well, he will issue a North Carolina “Special” boiler permit. The photos below will give you a little bit of flavor of what is underneath all the pretty black paint of previous pictures. Till Later, Larry
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Old 05-09-2009, 10:08:12 PM
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Default Re: 1/3 Scale CASE 65

I have been asked if I was able to find any decals for the 4" CASE. The answer is yes and I have a set. They are awesome ! The factory scene will really stand out well on the back of the contractor box. They come from Graybarn Machine. They have 1/4, 1/3, 1/2 scale and full size. The following link should get you there. http://www.graybarnmachine.com/index_files/Page589.htm Till later, Larry
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Old 05-09-2009, 11:31:23 PM
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Default Re: 1/3 Scale CASE 65

I mentioned in an earlier posting that I would share the conversation between myself and Bill Bondie a Federal Boiler Inspector. His comments have been most helpful with the design, running and shut down of my traction engine. When you download the PDF files below you should be able to increase the size of the document to make it easier to read. I might say that the operating and shut down procedures that Bill has outlined could also apply to full size engines. Till later, Larry
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Old 05-10-2009, 04:33:07 PM
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Default Re: 1/3 Scale CASE 65

Before I go much further with my postings, I want to tell you a little bit about my approach to machining and projects such as the 1/3 CASE. When I started my apprenticeship under my father’s watchful eyes, he encouraged me to watch and listen to the other model makers in the shop. He pointed out that no two-model makers would approach or do a task in the same manner. They may achieve the same end goal, but take different paths to get there. Dad said,” so watch, listen and develop your own style, something that works for you”. What I present may not be your way or the best way in the world to accomplish the task, but what I do is based on what I have learned, the resources I have at hand and what I am comfortable with. I hope to learn from all of you as I hope you can learn a little bit from me.

I approach scale model engineering in the same manner. I look at others models and try to apply those details that I like to my models. I am not a purist in any sense of the word in my model making. I work towards functionality and aesthetics. I build for my pleasure as an artist paints for himself or herself. The flip side of the coin, I am always open to constructive criticism. One of my mottos: a closed mind will never learn.

Contractor Box: The contractor box is fairly straightforward. I already had a preconceived image of what it was to look like from building 3 contractor boxes for my 1/4 scale CASE. So I thought this would be an easy task. When I really got into the drawings, what I was seeing was not anything like I had built before. The ¼ scale version had left out the step area for the differential gearing. So a new vision had to be developed. So I made some drawings that I could cipher and translate to flat sheet metal. I did take some liberties with the sizing. I made the overall length a little longer and I put more space between the rear wheel and the fuel bunker area. I wanted more water and fuel capacity and I wanted the extra space between the wheels and the box in case I wanted to put rubber to the rear wheels.

The entire box was made of 1/16” thick 304 stainless steel. I did not want to go through what I did with the ¼ scale CASE. They were made of steel and the first one did last me about 6 years. The second one only lasted two years before it started to leak. I had coated the inside with primer paint that never fully dried out spite my best efforts. Then the water got between the paint and the metal and sat there and rotted its way through the bottom of the box. I had pinholes by the dozens. Thus, I chose stainless steel for this build. I welded all the seams via the TIG (tungsten inert gas) method. TIG welding has a tungsten electrode that generates a plasma arc in an inert gas (argon) atmosphere at the weld area. A foot pedal controls the current going to the torch head thus controlling the size of the plasma arc. This way you can control the heat going into the weld joint. If you have a tight joint between two pieces and apply the plasma arc the metal melts and flows together very nicely without the aid of a filler rod. It makes for a beautiful joint. If you need additional metal to make the joint stronger, then filler rod may be added at the time of welding. I tell folks who watch the process that it is almost like soldering. I consider rivets to be an important part of a steam engine model. So I did incorporate rivets in the appropriate areas of my contractor box. I must say my finally way of securing the rivets in place is not what I had planned. I tried welding the rivets from the backside before assembly as I had done on my ¼ scale boxes. All that did was to warp the stainless steel panels way beyond use. I tried soldering from the outside with a small torch and a huge electric soldering iron, same results, the heat would warp the panels. So dad suggested using “superglue”. You know what, it worked very well. I put the superglue around the hole and lightly pushed the rivet in place so I would not push all the glue out of the joint. I gently wiped off the excess and after allowing sufficient time for the glue to cure, it took a hammer to pop the rivets out of their holes. The rest is history. I found some ½ round stainless bar stock that I formed and welded to the top edge of the box to stiffen up the sides and eliminate the sharp raw edge. I washed the entire box down with Dupont “Prep-Sol” to clean and degrease before painting. I used Ace Hardware house brand (made by Krylon) primer spray paint. I waited a good week before I painted the box a satin black. I did secure a great set of decals from “Graybarn Machine”. The link is in a previous post. The decals and pin striping will be applied when the tractor is all completed and running. The final touch so to speak. Till later, Larry
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The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Case Place For This Post:
  #19  
Old 05-14-2009, 10:51:24 PM
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Default Re: 1/3 Scale CASE 65

Greetings, I have started a blog on "Bloggers.com" about this build. My main reason is all the pictures that I have taken are high resolution and I can not get the file size down small enough to post on this forum. So far I have been able to post on the blog most of what you have already read and seen with the exception of a few more pictures. I still need to post a few more boiler fab pictures and then the latest posting on the contractor box. Here is the link to the blog site:
http://steamshack.blogspot.com/ Thank you for your interest, Till later, Larry
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The Following User Says Thank You to Case Place For This Post:
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Old 05-19-2009, 04:18:11 PM
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Default Re: 1/3 Scale CASE 65

I have posted information and pictures on the machining of the bull gears @ http://steamshack.blogspot.com/
Larry
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