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Fuels and Alternative Fuels Materials or substances that can be used as a fuel, waste oils, vegetable oils or animal fats, which can be used alone, or blended with fossil fuels.

Fuels and Alternative Fuels

Using Hydrogen For Fuel


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  #1  
Old 11-25-2007, 11:46:58 AM
John Tyson John Tyson is offline
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Default Using Hydrogen For Fuel

Has anyone ever tried using hydrogen to run their engine. Need some answers! Perhaps from those that run on propane and what they use to introduce gas into mixer
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Old 11-25-2007, 01:24:33 PM
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Preston Foster Preston Foster is offline
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Default Re: Using Hydrogen For Fuel

I have used Hydrogen as a fuel for very early pre 1900 engines with flame ignition for years. It is not to be used without lots of planning, good equipment, regulators and hoses. It can find the smallest spots to leak from. You can walk into a wall of Hydrogen flames and not even see it.

If it leaks it goes up and may be in your face when ignition happens. It has a very wide ignition range and burns rather slowly. I would sugest that it is not used as a general engine fuel and only be used if need because of its use in flame ignition engines where flane propagation speed is critical.

Preston Foster
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Old 11-25-2007, 01:40:34 PM
Patrick McNallen Patrick McNallen is offline
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Default Re: Using Hydrogen For Fuel

I suppose that a gas engine would run on hydrogen, at least if it wasn't loaded. I don't think you'd want to allow any hydrogen into a Diesel engine or oil engine. In the case of a gas engine, The combustion process could be controlled by leaning the mixture as long as the flash point of the mixture was high enough to prevent auto ignition. I don't think hydrogen has a very high BTU content at anything near atmospheric pressure, and the burn rate could be problematic under even low compression. Vaporization would not be a problem, but hydrogen is hard to hold and highly combustible, so care would be needed to handle it safely. I believe that hydrogen has fuel and handling properties similar to acetylene. There is no advantage to using hydrogen as fuel unless you like to inhale exhaust fumes, and I would expect that under most running conditions, especially in an antique engine, that enough carbon monoxide would be generated due to marginal combustion conditions to make the exhaust dangerous. If you are fascinated by water dripping from hydrogen fueled engine's exhaust, note that any hydrocarbon-fueled engine emits water vapor. A hydrogen-fueled engine with perfect combustion characteristics operating in a pure oxygen environment would emit nothing but heat and water vapor from the exhaust, assuming that no traces of lubricant could escape the engine. In the real world, the total emissions "footprint" for a hydrogen fueled engine would far exceed that of a good gasoline or propane-fueled engine.
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Old 11-25-2007, 05:54:38 PM
John Tyson John Tyson is offline
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Default Re: Using Hydrogen For Fuel

It's the abundance of hydrogen that makes it practical! I'm hoping to use my hydrogen cell and the creation of Hho gas to fuel my engine. Won't need an air intake being that Hho gas is perfect for ignition. Comments Please.....jack
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Old 11-25-2007, 06:30:14 PM
Patrick McNallen Patrick McNallen is offline
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Default Re: Using Hydrogen For Fuel

I don't encounter much hydrogen except in combination with other substances, typically oxygen, and it doesn't burn well in such a condition. What is the common name for Hho?
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Old 11-25-2007, 06:48:10 PM
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Default Re: Using Hydrogen For Fuel

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Tyson View Post
Its The Abundance Of Hydrogen That Makes It Practical!
Please explain.
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Old 11-25-2007, 08:02:58 PM
Forrest Stewart Forrest Stewart is offline
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Default Re: Using Hydrogen For Fuel

I detect a slight hesitation or opposition to Hydrogen here and I hope I read it wrong. I fully believe that Hydrogen is the fuel of the future. And yes technology will have to help.

Years ago Farm Show magazine had an article about a shade-tree mechanic that drove a Ford full size car with a 400 engine from Florida to Texas. He generated Hydrogen as he needed it. No fast excelerations and he averaged 40 miles per hour. I don't remember the amount of water he used tho it was very little.

Just a shade tree mechanic so what would, could, technology do without the help of oil ?

Back to the shadows of Buffalo Bill.
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Old 11-25-2007, 08:49:46 PM
Patrick McNallen Patrick McNallen is offline
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Default Re: Using Hydrogen For Fuel

Hydrogen does not occur naturally in a combustible form. To use it as a fuel, it must be separated from whatever it is chemically combined with, which is typically oxygen. Hydrogen in this condition is commonly known as water. Water and other hydrogen compounds can be decomposed by several means to release hydrogen, which can then be burned to operate any kind of heat engine. It takes more energy to prepare the hydrogen fuel than can be recovered from it. There are numerous naturally-occuring and widely available hydrogen compounds besides water, and unlike water, many of these substances are easily caused to give up large amounts of energy in ordinary and practical situations by means of a simple oxidation process which can be initated with a small electric arc or even a simple kitchen match, to mention but two of several simple and inexpensive methods of initating the desired energy release whenever it is desirable to do so.
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Old 11-25-2007, 09:22:02 PM
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Default Re: Using Hydrogen For Fuel

Might want to check these out:

http://www.yourdailymedia.com/media/...55/Water_Power

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directo...ogen_Injection
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Old 11-25-2007, 09:39:03 PM
Patrick McNallen Patrick McNallen is offline
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Default Re: Using Hydrogen For Fuel

I can decompose water into hydrogen and oxygen with a coat hanger and a lantern battery, or a solar cell, or an antique telephone generator and a diode or any DC battery charger. You could make a bunch of it PDQ with a DC arc welder, though I doubt you'd live long enough to collect much of it in any usuable from. Anyone can decompose water into its constituents, and the process is not patented or patentable. I could use a box of oranges and a few scraps of metal and an empty Coors can to release hydrogen from tap water or ditch water or toilet water or beer piss... I can't create energy, though. Neither can Mr.Wizard on UTube or Al Gore in his jet and neither can you or the corn-fed U.S. Congress. The video is bunk or self-delusion, maybe a little of both. Credible scientists and inventors discuss hydrogen in terms of an energy storage medium, not as a fuel.
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Old 11-25-2007, 10:47:25 PM
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Default Re: Using Hydrogen For Fuel

Good golly, Patrick! Do you mean to say that I can't run my truck on tap water and wishful thinking?

Thanks!
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Old 11-25-2007, 11:10:17 PM
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Default Re: Using Hydrogen For Fuel

Here's another type of fuel recently developed...AIR!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_car

Patrick, is your middle name Exxon?
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Old 11-26-2007, 04:56:58 AM
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Default Re: Using Hydrogen For Fuel

Turning on an electrical load in an automobile increases the load on the alternator, thereby increasing the load on the crankshaft. There is no "wasted extra electrical current" floating willynilly about your cars electrical system. The simple act of turning on a cooling fan uses GASOLINE. And as outrageous as it may seem, simply turning on the headlights will burn more gas as well. A miniscule amount, but it is a load all the same.

There is no opposition here to ANYTHING that WORKS
Quite the opposite of worshiping Exxon, our reverence is for giants like James Joule, Bill Grove, Einstein, Canot, Yunick, and Ricardo. Upon whose shoulders we could see forever, if we would only do the required reading.

Were nuclear power to become widespread, the cost of electricity could be low enough that you might be able to run your hydrogen powered scooter around. But even if electrical costs were reduced to 1/3 of present the electrolytic reduction of water into its basic constituents still uses roughly 1.4 energy units for every unit of energy gained (hydrogen). Any engine folk that have run an electrolysis tank (it is a prerequisite to getting certified) will see that the tank stays warm, and that heat is what is being wasted, or the extra point 5 in the 1.4. (If it were actually .9 units used per unit gained, you would set the world on its ear.) If the guy in the hydro car had burned gasoline as his sole fuel, he could have gone to Florida and then on up to the Carolinas, at breakneck speeds as well!

The laws of thermodynamics and conservation of energy are just as intuitive and inescapable as gravity, albeit a bit less visible. I had this conversation a couple weekends ago with a Big Block jet boat Engineer type customer of mine. "What on Earth possessed you to put that 20 thousand dollar engine in front of a jet pump?!?!? Why didn't you just build a vee drive?"
He grins reeeeal big "AAAAH youre one of those efficiency freaks arent you?"
Which is fine, it's his fuel bill, not mine. And the need for increased HP to overcome the inefficiencies of a jet pump increase their parts bills, which is also just fine by me.

I sense there is some correlation between the current popularity of corn based fuels, hydrogen/water cars, and jet boats. I just cant put my finger on it. Anybody have any insight?
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Old 11-26-2007, 06:46:23 AM
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Default Re: Using Hydrogen For Fuel

Chuckie B. said:
"I sense there is some correlation between the current popularity of corn based fuels, hydrogen/water cars, and jet boats. I just cant put my finger on it. Anybody have any insight?"


The failing American educational system!!!!!

Now please stop thinking and go back to watching Britney videos on YouTube.
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Old 11-26-2007, 10:16:11 AM
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Default Re: Using Hydrogen For Fuel

Oh Boy, I knew this was going to be an interesting topic. H2 by its shear abundance is of course very appealing to use as a fuel. Now before I get flame mail and people saying my mission in life is to promote global warming, let me say that I know we need to develop alternate energy sources. And I fully understand that the existing fossil fuel reserves are extremely limited. I will mention a few concerns and echo the comments several people have already mentioned.

Firstly and foremost: H2 is dangerous. It will burn with almost any ratio of air and the amount of energy needed to ignite it is 1/10 that of typical fossil fuels. So basically if you have a leak the static created by the slight movement a polyester jacket can set it off. It can ignite just by the friction of it excaping an open valve.

Secondly: It can only be stored economically in one of two ways. Extreme pressure ( in excess of 2000 PSI or in the liquid form @ -450 degrees F) I honestly do not think we want either of these forms of H2 fuel leaking or rupturing from a tank in an automobile accident.

The amount of energy needed to get H2 from water or many of the other compounds it is attached to is about 1.5 times higher than the useful energy it yields by itself. It really does not make much sense to burn fossil fuel which most of our energy is made from today to power the equipment/processes needed to make ˝ the equivalent energy in H2. As a result we end up actually putting twice the greenhouse gasses in the atmosphere. The public really has no idea what the politicians are really touting when they beat their arms on their chest and say H2 fuel is the answer. They are saying what the public wants to hear.



Thirdly: Contrary to popular belief H2 has low energy value and burns slow. And when burnt make pure water. In terms of a modern engine there are severe limitation on the operating speed as the flame front is slow. Also a percentage ( even if it appears insignificant) will blow by the piston rings and get into the crank case. After extended operation or quick trips to and from the store, large quantities of water vapor will condense in the crankcase oil creating havoc with lubrication and any ferrous metal part.

We as a society need to develop alternative fuels if our sons and daughters are going to have the luxury of affordable individualized transportation down the road. My point in this post is not to say that H2 is a bad fuel. My point is to say that the general public needs to understand that there are huge limitation and safety concerns with it. Maybe down the road Hydrogen will be the fuel of choice but in todays world it costs much more to extract, purify and compress than almost any readily available fuel including gasoline, diesel, propane, natural gas, ect.

I can speak for the safety of handling Hydrogen. After spending 20 years working in one of the largest liquid Hydrogen facilities in North America, I have a tremendous respect for the hazards and special care needed with handling this fuel. Even something as simple as fueling a car ( that we all take for granted as a simple task) becomes a critical operation when talking about the transfer of liquid hydrogen from one source to another.

So to answer the question of the original post on this thread. Yes, H2 Can be used to run an engine. I did it before having any practical experience with handling it. Just be very very careful, do not be afraid to educate yourself with the precautions needed. Have a fire extinguisher ready and do not ever use it in a garage where gas from a leak will rise to the ceiling and become ignited by overhead lighting fixtures. Remember it has no odor or color. - Wayne
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Old 11-26-2007, 10:25:53 AM
Patrick McNallen Patrick McNallen is offline
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Default Re: Using Hydrogen For Fuel

Re: Good golly, Patrick! Do you mean to say that I can't run my truck on tap water and wishful thinking? ///// Of course you can! All you need is the Cash Flow Secret! This is straight from the UNDERGROUND, so don't tell anybody or Exxon goons will be out looking for you: The facts is all you need to run any car or SUV is an old generator from a '58 VW Beetle and a heater fan motor from a '49 Pontiac. Hook the two shaft thingies together with a pulley in the middle and put them in the glove box and run the wire to the cigarette lighter plug. Keep a piece of string in the glovebox, and whenever you want to go anywhere, wrap the string around the pulley and give it a pull. As soon as the generator starts spinning, the juice surge directly to the motor from the generator and then the pure electric power will flow through the wire and be fed directly into your car's system! Then just drive away as you normally would as you enjoy faster accelleration, higher top speeds, and no more gasolene bills! Repairs are cut by as much as 90% and you will pass all emissions tests, not to mention everyone else on the road, even those FATCAT CEOS IN THEIR BMWS!!! ! When you get back home, plug the special Dynamic Adapter Powercord ($19.95) into your walls to eliminate your monthly electric bill and increase your Green Footprint!
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Old 11-26-2007, 02:27:11 PM
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Default Re: Using Hydrogen For Fuel

I do know that Ford has a car which uses a hydrogen internal combustion engine, and that Toyota is working on a system to store hydrogen in a suspension of metallic powder released when a current from photovoltaic cells on the roof is passed through it. This all from watching Scientific American Frontiers, although Alan Alda is nowhere near as funny as in MASH .
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Old 11-26-2007, 04:28:37 PM
Patrick McNallen Patrick McNallen is offline
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Default Re: Using Hydrogen For Fuel

There are some solar powered vehicles, too. These are pretty toys, of no possible practical use, and they cost a fortune in grant money and don't use any fuel at all or emit anything, all of which is most admirable... but they are still destroying the planet because of the fine particulate matter (FPM, or "dust") that they raise when in operation. We simply cannot tolerate this grave threat to the lungs of the children of the world!
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Old 11-26-2007, 05:08:59 PM
John Tyson John Tyson is offline
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Default Re: Using Hydrogen For Fuel

My friends and persecuters..I've been working on a cell for a long time and now it time to use it! I decided on using an old engine because of its simplicity!! A mechanic I'm not!! my cell is safe. To be grossly over simplified ....think of stepping on the gas pedal to pickup speed.....WELL MY SYSTEM only makes what is needed at the moment...YEAH FLYING WAS FOR FOOLS TOO...JACK TYSON
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Old 11-26-2007, 06:30:04 PM
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Arrow Re: Using Hydrogen For Fuel

Come on guys, lighten up
I thought John asked a legit and simple question. It'd didnt have to turn into a ... ...Nuff said
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