Antique Engines and Old Iron
[Home] - [HELP] - [Forums] - [Library] - [Photo Gallery] - [Groups] - [Classified Ads] - [Subscribe] - [Links] - [Books] - [Sponsors] -

Go Back   SmokStak > SmokStak® Old Iron and Tractor Community > Antique Farm Tractors
Forgot Password? Join Us!

Notices

Antique Farm Tractors Vintage farm tractors on rubber tires with various implements. Ford, John Deere, Oliver, McCormick and more.

Antique Farm Tractors

Minneapolis-Moline Prototype 445 Tractor #X-231


this thread has 100 replies and has been viewed 16618 times

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 02-05-2017, 02:41:04 PM
Squatch253 Squatch253 is offline
Registered-I
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Kerrick, Minnesota, USA
Posts: 201
Thanks: 333
Thanked 764 Times in 164 Posts
Default Re: Minneapolis-Moline Prototype 445 Tractor #X-231

Been keeping busy reconditioning some of the other parts I have here while I wait for the machine shop to get done with all the major pieces, I started with the oil pump and filter assembly. Nothing prototype about these pieces, they are all earlier model ZB components.




That video is about 2 weeks old, there's been a lot more done since then but I'm a little behind on uploading video and editing. Stay tuned for more in the next few days.
Reply With Quote
The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Squatch253 For This Post:
Sponsored Links
  #22  
Old 02-06-2017, 03:20:49 PM
Mark Schneider Mark Schneider is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Carrington, North Dakota
Posts: 1,159
Thanks: 1,968
Thanked 2,835 Times in 735 Posts
Default Re: Minneapolis-Moline Prototype 445 Tractor #X-231

Those oil pump gears look very similar to ones used in the Twin City Twin Cam tractors. Pictured below are the set out of my 1922 TC 20-35 which I am currently working on.

Length.....1.50"
Diameter..1.290"
Shaft dia.. .625"

I'd be interested in seeing how these compare with yours.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	TC 20-35 Canadian 1 102.jpg
Views:	57
Size:	116.5 KB
ID:	274149   Click image for larger version

Name:	TC 20-35 Canadian 1 103.jpg
Views:	75
Size:	115.7 KB
ID:	274150  

Last edited by Mark Schneider; 02-06-2017 at 08:32:26 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Mark Schneider For This Post:
  #23  
Old 02-06-2017, 11:42:17 PM
Squatch253 Squatch253 is offline
Registered-I
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Kerrick, Minnesota, USA
Posts: 201
Thanks: 333
Thanked 764 Times in 164 Posts
Default Re: Minneapolis-Moline Prototype 445 Tractor #X-231

Mark, I just measured the pump gears I have here - both the production ZB ones from X231 and some production 445 ones I also had handy - and got very similar dimensions to yours.

Length - 1.50"
Diameter - 1.295"
Shaft Dia. - .625"

Very interesting how they were still using those same pump gears up into the late '50's!
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Squatch253 For This Post:
  #24  
Old 02-07-2017, 10:00:08 AM
Molinegb Molinegb is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Melita MB Canada
Posts: 1,103
Thanks: 387
Thanked 1,256 Times in 522 Posts
Default Re: Minneapolis-Moline Prototype 445 Tractor #X-231

They share same TW part number until the 10A numbers were used. How many set do you want?
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 02-07-2017, 02:49:48 PM
Mark Schneider Mark Schneider is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Carrington, North Dakota
Posts: 1,159
Thanks: 1,968
Thanked 2,835 Times in 735 Posts
Default Re: Minneapolis-Moline Prototype 445 Tractor #X-231

Gary...I got another oil pump off of my neighbor's 17-28 parts tractor so I think I have enough parts now to put one together for the 20-35. Russ Hamm was looking for a set for his TC 17-28. I don't know if he has found anything yet.

It is interesting to see just how much "mileage" MM got out of that gear set that was first made in 1918 for the TC 12-20.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 02-09-2017, 10:56:14 PM
Squatch253 Squatch253 is offline
Registered-I
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Kerrick, Minnesota, USA
Posts: 201
Thanks: 333
Thanked 764 Times in 164 Posts
Default Re: Minneapolis-Moline Prototype 445 Tractor #X-231

Got another video spliced together, after I finished with the oil pump I moved on to reconditioning X231's governor system. Very similar to the production 445 system, but with a few minor differences that I kept original as much as possible.




Still waiting to get the last of the parts back from the machine shop, don't have the crankshaft yet and that's the first piece I need to really start putting the engine together. So, I've still been keeping busy fixing the more minor components so they'll be ready to just bolt on when the time comes. Stay tuned!
Reply With Quote
The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to Squatch253 For This Post:
  #27  
Old 02-20-2017, 11:46:31 PM
Squatch253 Squatch253 is offline
Registered-I
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Kerrick, Minnesota, USA
Posts: 201
Thanks: 333
Thanked 764 Times in 164 Posts
Default Re: Minneapolis-Moline Prototype 445 Tractor #X-231

Time for another update here, I spent the last week or so slowly reconditioning all the upper valve train components; correcting wear on the rocker arms, repairing some broken pieces, and just getting everything really cleaned back up and ready for reassembly.

It's been a while since I took any actual pictures for this thread, been relying mostly on video so I decided to take a few shots that sort of preview the video I also made for these pieces. For the entire story the video will be the best source, but here are a few pics I snapped that also might supplement some of what I had to edit out for time constraints.



For the most part the upper valve train components on X231 are very similar to the production 445, although several design changes were made along the way. One thing they share in common though is how the rocker arm shaft mounts to the cylinder heads via four cast iron clamp type pedestals -





Unfortunately two of X231's pedestals were broken, likely from overtightening -





Both of these pieces have the "10X" casting numbers on them, and although they're identical in every other way to the production 10A pieces, I really wanted to make every attempt to use them. One of my main goals with this project is to keep as many of the prototype components on the machine as is possible, within reason. So I figured since they were already broken, I might as well attempt to repair them to see if they could be saved.

After checking into the pros and cons of different repair options, I settled on brazing them back together since I figured I'd have the best results with that approach. So I "vee'd" everything out, mounted them in a crude fixture with a spacer placed between the two pieces to maintain the original gap, and started out with a bolt that I had cut in half length-ways to provide some relief for welding up the one side without making the bolt a part of the assembly. Once the first side was brazed, the bolt would come out and the other side would be finished.





I repeated the same process on both pedestals, tried to get the brazing built up far enough to be able to reshape them close to their original dimensions.

Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Squatch253 For This Post:
  #28  
Old 02-20-2017, 11:59:41 PM
Squatch253 Squatch253 is offline
Registered-I
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Kerrick, Minnesota, USA
Posts: 201
Thanks: 333
Thanked 764 Times in 164 Posts
Default Re: Minneapolis-Moline Prototype 445 Tractor #X-231

I ended up grinding the welds down slowly with a dremel tool at first, then finished up shaping them by hand with a few different files. It took a bit of time, but I was able to get them close to their original shape again.





Got them both finished, made sure they still fit the rocker shaft well and looked decent, considering how they were when I started with them. I suppose they could've been re-cast and made new again, but that option was just not worth it for me considering what it would have cost. If I had not been able to repair them, I likely would've just replaced them with the production 10A pieces since they're basically all the same.





Rocker components all back together for now, I think I'm going to place the two repaired pedestals in the middle positions so I at least have two that I trust out on the ends for good support. I'll watch them closely as I tighten them down during the reassembly stage, but for now I'm calling things good.





For the complete story, full details, and comparisons between the prototype components and the production ones, check out the full video. On a side note, we've finally started getting a few of the parts back from the machine shop, so hopefully I'll have some pics of some actual reassembly happening soon!

Reply With Quote
The Following 11 Users Say Thank You to Squatch253 For This Post:
  #29  
Old 02-23-2017, 06:43:01 PM
Randy Reysen's Avatar
Randy Reysen Randy Reysen is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 433
Thanks: 533
Thanked 1,973 Times in 254 Posts
Default Re: Minneapolis-Moline Prototype 445 Tractor #X-231

Wow! That is one awsome machine! Great work. Thanks for saving it! If I ever see it at a show I'm going to ask to drive it - I've never had the opportunity to be on a prototype before.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Randy Reysen For This Post:
  #30  
Old 03-03-2017, 11:21:35 PM
Squatch253 Squatch253 is offline
Registered-I
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Kerrick, Minnesota, USA
Posts: 201
Thanks: 333
Thanked 764 Times in 164 Posts
Default Re: Minneapolis-Moline Prototype 445 Tractor #X-231

Time for another update, I managed to get another video put together that I'll link to below. Progress has been slow lately due to work picking up and more hours away from the shop.

But I was able to get the final cleaning/prep work done on the cylinders as well as assemble all four pistons and rods. Plus, just yesterday I got the much awaited crankshaft back from the machine shop so I'll finally start getting some real assembly done on the engine. I'll post a couple of pics, but for the rest of the story check out the video too.


The new .020" over pistons, pins, rods, and rings as well as the newly bored out cylinders - all cleaned, prepped, and ready for installation.





Also did the final cleaning on the crankshaft, which cleaned up really well at .020" under on all journals. Finally ready to begin filling up the empty engine block.






And the video -

Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Squatch253 For This Post:
  #31  
Old 03-11-2017, 12:52:31 AM
Squatch253 Squatch253 is offline
Registered-I
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Kerrick, Minnesota, USA
Posts: 201
Thanks: 333
Thanked 764 Times in 164 Posts
Default Re: Minneapolis-Moline Prototype 445 Tractor #X-231

Got the crankshaft set in the block the other day, everything fit really well. Glad to finally be putting major components back together.





Check out the video for the full story -

Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Squatch253 For This Post:
  #32  
Old 03-11-2017, 11:03:47 AM
Mark Schneider Mark Schneider is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Carrington, North Dakota
Posts: 1,159
Thanks: 1,968
Thanked 2,835 Times in 735 Posts
Default Re: Minneapolis-Moline Prototype 445 Tractor #X-231

That's quite an unconventional layout of the crankshaft bearings. 2 integral bearing saddles with a removable saddle assembly in the rear would make the realignment of the original line boring position a challenge on this design...similar to rechucking a piece of work in a lathe and trying to locate the exact position it was originally located. Is the rear main assembly doweled to the block to aid this alignment? I didn't see any but I could have missed them.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Mark Schneider For This Post:
  #33  
Old 03-11-2017, 12:04:53 PM
Squatch253 Squatch253 is offline
Registered-I
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Kerrick, Minnesota, USA
Posts: 201
Thanks: 333
Thanked 764 Times in 164 Posts
Default Re: Minneapolis-Moline Prototype 445 Tractor #X-231

Mark, you are correct there are no dowels for that rear thrust bearing housing to align with the block, it just relies on the O.D. of the housing being a light slip fit into its bore at the rear of the crankcase. I've wondered that same thing about maintaining alignment though, or whether their machining tolerances were close enough to be able to change out a rear bearing housing with another one and still be able to keep all the main bearings aligned. It must've worked well enough, considering the ZB, 445, and several other models featured this type of construction. And the illustrations in the parts manuals list that rear bearing housing as a separately replaceable piece independent of the block, with no mention of having to replace both as an assembly.
Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Squatch253 For This Post:
  #34  
Old 03-14-2017, 09:06:31 PM
Squatch253 Squatch253 is offline
Registered-I
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Kerrick, Minnesota, USA
Posts: 201
Thanks: 333
Thanked 764 Times in 164 Posts
Default Re: Minneapolis-Moline Prototype 445 Tractor #X-231

Made another video the other day while I was installing the cylinder blocks, pistons, and rods. Things go together rather quickly when everything has already been prepped and is just waiting to be put back in.

Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Squatch253 For This Post:
  #35  
Old 03-15-2017, 09:06:38 AM
Molinegb Molinegb is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Melita MB Canada
Posts: 1,103
Thanks: 387
Thanked 1,256 Times in 522 Posts
Default Re: Minneapolis-Moline Prototype 445 Tractor #X-231

Any damaged knuckles installing crankshaft? Every time I do one it happens. Are you staying with ball bearing governor? Will suffice for all your going to use it.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 03-15-2017, 10:51:43 PM
Squatch253 Squatch253 is offline
Registered-I
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Kerrick, Minnesota, USA
Posts: 201
Thanks: 333
Thanked 764 Times in 164 Posts
Default Re: Minneapolis-Moline Prototype 445 Tractor #X-231

Nope I got lucky no busted knuckles this time, but for some reason having the camera there makes me a lot more careful. Yeah I'm keeping the ball bearing governor setup, the cartridge that was originally in it was in excellent shape, check out the "Part 5" video I made of it for the full account. I believe I found some evidence of a prior governor failure when I was cleaning out the crankcase, so I believe the ball bearing cartridge was replaced shortly before the tractor was parked by the previous owners.

Basically my goal with this tractor is not to really upgrade anything, but keep all of its shortcomings intact for the sake of originality, when possible. If this was going to be a working tractor I would have went with the flyweight type governor but this one's only gonna do parades from now on. Another place I could've improved this engine but decided not to was where they used those little Torrington needle bearings on the governor lever shaft instead of the bronze bushings that the later production engines had. Those bearings really wore into the old shaft over time, probably causing it not to pivot as freely as was necessary for smooth operation, and then lost some of their needle rollers in the process. But I replaced everything with the exact same components, as this was Moline's first stab at this governor setup and those are the characteristics that set a crude prototype machine apart from a refined production model. Besides, I'll never wear the new ones out again anyway.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Squatch253 For This Post:
  #37  
Old 03-17-2017, 10:30:18 AM
Squatch253 Squatch253 is offline
Registered-I
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Kerrick, Minnesota, USA
Posts: 201
Thanks: 333
Thanked 764 Times in 164 Posts
Default Re: Minneapolis-Moline Prototype 445 Tractor #X-231

Well the other day I was preparing to do a bunch more assembly on the engine when I realized I had made an oversight regarding the sequence in which this engine has to be put back together, which now in hindsight I should've been able to spot this little SNAFU well before it became a problem but for some reason it just sailed right past me. Check out the video below for the full story -





This was actually another instance where it becomes apparent how this tractor really is just a hybrid of an earlier Model ZB and a later Model 445, how some of the ZB design attributes conflicted with the 445 features, and some of the shortcuts the original engineers had to take to make it all work.
Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Squatch253 For This Post:
  #38  
Old 03-17-2017, 07:31:12 PM
Jacob WI Jacob WI is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Kenmare, North Dakota
Posts: 305
Thanks: 1,315
Thanked 673 Times in 179 Posts
Default Re: Minneapolis-Moline Prototype 445 Tractor #X-231

I guess I have to hang out over here on the rubber tire forum more often (usually I'm over at lugs and cleats), as I just discovered this thread today!

I'm loving it! I thoroughly enjoy the great pics and videos, the little details you point out between the prototype and production models I really get a kick out of! They are not boring to me at all. I am an Allis guy, so I focus on the little details of production changes in AC over the production of their tractors in the same way you do with MM, please keep it up

I'm originally from Ashland, WI, so about a couple hours away from you it seems. Some time it would be nice to meet up with you.

Keep up the great work, and please continue to keep us posted! Thanks!
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Jacob WI For This Post:
  #39  
Old 03-17-2017, 10:57:23 PM
Squatch253 Squatch253 is offline
Registered-I
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Kerrick, Minnesota, USA
Posts: 201
Thanks: 333
Thanked 764 Times in 164 Posts
Default Re: Minneapolis-Moline Prototype 445 Tractor #X-231

Thanks, most of the videos I've made so far have ended up being longer than I would like, but one of the goals I had in mind was documenting as many of these details as I could while it was all still right in front of me and fresh in my mind. I find now that several years after restoring the #X253 prototype crawler some of those little details of that machine have started to fade from my memory, even though I took a lot of still pictures of the process. I try to edit as much unnecessary stuff out of the videos as I can but still keep enough to tell the story, and before I know it my 5 minute video is now 13 minutes long!
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Squatch253 For This Post:
  #40  
Old 03-20-2017, 03:10:36 PM
Squatch253 Squatch253 is offline
Registered-I
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Kerrick, Minnesota, USA
Posts: 201
Thanks: 333
Thanked 764 Times in 164 Posts
Default Re: Minneapolis-Moline Prototype 445 Tractor #X-231

Hey everybody, I'm seeking any input I can get on what to do about the cylinder heads on X231's engine. First the back story - when we first took the engine apart we found that the cylinder heads did not match the rest of the engine and it was obvious they'd been replaced at some point. The heads that were on it were production 445 pieces, the 10A5854 high compression ones. They had placed two sets of head gaskets under each one, which now looks like it was an attempt to increase the combustion chambers a little bit to get things closer to standard. We disassembled and stripped those high compression heads and had them tested for cracks and/or warpage, along with a set of 10A5851 standard compression heads and all of them checked out good. So, my thinking is that since the original 10X heads are long gone with no possibility of replacement, I believe the standard compression 10A heads would be a much better choice to use on this engine since we're not building it for performance and it's still got the smaller ZB type main bearing bolts holding the bottom end together. Whatever set of heads we choose to use will get all new valve guides, valves, and springs put in plus have the seats reconditioned.

So, my question is what are everybody's opinions on this? Should I just stay with the high compression heads that we found on it for the sake of keeping it closer to the "as found" configuration or go with the standard compression heads (which I have to guess would be closer to what it once had)? After all, the originals are long gone now so I really don't think it would matter one way or the other at this point, but I would like to get some other perspectives.

High compression 10A5854's on the left, standard 10A5851's on the right.

Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Squatch253 For This Post:
Reply

Bookmarks


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

F o r u m Jump

Similar Threads Chosen at Random
Thread Thread Starter F o r u m Replies Last Post
Minneapolis Moline UTS Tractor ozfarm Smokstak Down Under 33 07-31-2017 05:16:00 AM
Minneapolis-Moline UTOX and Minneapolis-Moline UDLX Mecum Auctions Live Auctions of Engines, Tractors and Old Iron 0 04-19-2016 04:12:46 PM
Minneapolis Steamer and Moline Tractor Fred Van Hook YouTube Old Iron Videos 1 08-07-2013 01:24:00 PM
RARE Minneapolis MOline UDLX Tractor to be Sold NO Reserve Oct. 8th, Grenora, ND! salvageprincess Live Auctions of Engines, Tractors and Old Iron 0 05-26-2011 11:54:43 AM
Minneapolis Moline Model R Cab Tractor TRS66 Antique Farm Tractors 4 10-04-2010 12:26:32 PM


Use "Ctrl" mouse wheel to change screen size.
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:11:32 AM.

Smokstak and Enginads site search!


All use is subject to our TERMS OF SERVICE
SMOKSTAK® is a Registered Trade Mark - A Community of Antique Engine Enthusiasts
Copyright © 2000 - 2019 by Harry Matthews P.O. Box 5612 - Sarasota, FL 34277