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Fuels and Alternative Fuels Materials or substances that can be used as a fuel, waste oils, vegetable oils or animal fats, which can be used alone, or blended with fossil fuels.

Fuels and Alternative Fuels

E15 in Newer Cars


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  #21  
Old 04-08-2019, 09:07:36 AM
Odin Odin is offline
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Default Re: E15 in newer cars

I've said before my old 1988 Chevy Nova would get very nearly 40 MPG on 100% gasoline, but would be somewhere around 30-32 MPG on 10% ethanol. and I could feel a difference between the fuels on that, as the 10% ethanol the mixture would be off enough to be running hot and lacking power.

Have repeated the same experiment on my 2015 Mitsubishi Mirage, but both times so far I've actually gotten a ~2MPG increase on the E10 compared to the 100% gasoline. I believe this is because the modern EFI controls are able to take advantage of E10's knock resistance to tune the engine more aggressively and get an efficiency gain as well as compensating for the change in mixture that is required with the Ethanol fuel.

So its really only a problem for vehicles older than the mid 2000s, which weren't designed to deal with the E10 fuel and will need adjustments as well as having issues with the ethanol attacking the seals.
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Old 05-11-2019, 01:34:31 PM
Tracy T Tracy T is offline
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Default Re: E15 in newer cars

well after a month running 100% gasoline I have the results, yes running 100% gets better mpg, a whopping 1.4 more mpg improvment.
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  #23  
Old 05-11-2019, 08:45:17 PM
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OTTO-Sawyer OTTO-Sawyer is offline
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Default Re: E15 in newer cars

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well after a month running 100% gasoline I have the results, yes running 100% gets better mpg, a whopping 1.4 more mpg improvment.
Figure your Miles Per Dollar on each of them and see if it's worth it or not.

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Old 05-11-2019, 10:12:56 PM
Tracy T Tracy T is offline
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Default Re: E15 in newer cars

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Figure your Miles Per Dollar on each of them and see if it's worth it or not.

to me its a, NO BRAINER! last tankfull i ran preminum with ethanol, we will see what that results. 10 cents cheaper than 100%. folks i do the math, YMMV but these are honest results based on what is avalible in my area. I sugguest you do your own math in your area with what is avalible.
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Old 05-11-2019, 10:21:42 PM
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Default Re: E15 in newer cars

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well after a month running 100% gasoline I have the results, yes running 100% gets better mpg, a whopping 1.4 more mpg improvment.
Are you sure you were running 100%?
There was a fella would take a sample of gas at every fill-up and add water to it to see how much ethanol was in it. He found ethanol in some supposedly pure gas too.
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  #26  
Old 05-12-2019, 08:23:41 AM
Tracy T Tracy T is offline
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Default Re: E15 in newer cars

power i suppose anything is possible, I do recall one time i had to take two squirt trucks out and pump a gas station dry. someone got their numbers crossed up when they placed their order, tanker driver ended up having a few hundred gallons of diesel left over and guess where he dumped it, thats right, rignt into the gas storage! they had myself and another driver go out and pump it, we brought it back to the terminal and put it in one of our empty storage tanks then they pumped a whole tractor trailer load of gas in the same tank. that stuff went to several different stations a 1000 gallon at a time.
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Old 05-12-2019, 10:35:41 PM
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Default Re: E15 in newer cars

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Originally Posted by Tracy T View Post
to me its a, NO BRAINER! last tankfull i ran preminum with ethanol, we will see what that results. 10 cents cheaper than 100%. folks i do the math, YMMV but these are honest results based on what is avalible in my area. I sugguest you do your own math in your area with what is avalible.
Been There Done That.

Never had any measurable difference in mpg between them so I always ran the cheapest I could get for more mp$.

A few years ago I tried a different station than the 2 or 3 I normally used and noticed an increase in mpg (still marked as "Up To 10%" like all the others) and have been buying there ever since. An Added Bonus is they're usually $0.01 to $0.05 a gallon cheaper than everywhere else so I enjoy the higher mpg AND Lower mp$ at the same time.

In 40+ years of driving (and checking mileage on EVERY Tank) I've never noticed any difference in mileage or performance from one brand to another so I'm still at a bit of a loss to explain why I get better mileage Now all the sudden, but Circle-K consistently gives me better mileage than Mobil and Shell and Sinclair and Sunoco and Marathon and everything else I've used over the years.

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  #28  
Old 10-20-2019, 11:35:09 PM
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Default Re: E15 in Newer Cars

My service team includes eight Ford F250's, 2wd, with 6.2l 2-valve 'flex fuel' rated 2019 engines. We have slide-in service bodies with ladder racks, with one extension ladder (collapsed 14ft long) and one stepladder (8ft) on the roof... and we average about 65,000 miles of mostly interstate driving each year for two years, before replacing the trucks with new model-year. Laden with typical tools, they're all about 9200lbs. They're all treated to oil/filter changes on 2500 mile intervals, and the oil samples are tested at each change.

We drove them for their first 10,000 miles on premium, and 10,000 on E10, then 10,000 on E85, then 10,000 on E10.

On premium (no ethanol), we averaged 12.8mpg.
on E10, we averaged 9.6.
On E85, we averaged 6.8.
Returning to non-ethanol, we averaged 14.0

We attribute the 1mpg nominal change to break-in.

Our oil samples indicated substantially higher water presence during E10 and E85 operation.

In theory, everything 'good' about ethanol SHOULD be true.

If it's properly mixed, transported, and dispensed, and used in a very short time, it'll be fine.

Fact is, that it's simply not.

Take a 2-gallon can to the gas station, and pump it full of E10. Get two glass pickle jars, fill 'em 2/3rds full. Install unadulterated lid on one, punch holes in the lid of the other, place them both on a shelf for six weeks, then take another look.

Gasoline is a hydrocarbon fuel, and with exception of the lighter fractions, will last a fairly long time on it's own, in even a marginal fuel storage vessel.

Ethanol is a carbohydrate, and it's incredibly hygroscopic, and very corrosive and hard on polymers.

Carbohydrates do not MIX with Hydrocarbons- they're in suspension. Those jars, after just a day or so, will start to show the ethanol settling out at the bottom, and all the moisture it's drawn from the atmosphere will be saturated within it.

THIS is where your fuel pickup is... so when you start that lawn mower, you'll get nicely saturated ethanol, along with fragments of all the rubber, plastic, aluminum, zinc,brass, etc., of the fuel system finding it's way into the main jet, emulsion tube, and idle jet.

It's crap. I've dealt with more destroyed chain saws, trimmers, generators, motorcycles, and boat engines due to ethanol, than all other common problems COMBINED.

My wife and I come from long-time families of corn growing, we're surrounded by it, and our farmland leases are paid by it, but we're not going to disseminate propoganda for benefit of pushing a product.
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  #29  
Old 10-20-2019, 11:54:23 PM
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Default Re: E15 in Newer Cars

What a difference! 6.8 to 14.
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  #30  
Old 10-21-2019, 07:32:42 AM
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Default Re: E15 in Newer Cars

I drive a GMC service truck, flex fuel. It gets about 13 on regular and about 11 or so on e85. It definitely looses some, as expected, but certainly not half! Flex is about 20 cents cheaper, I don't think it adds up to a better deal in my area. Truck feels/runs the same.
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  #31  
Old 10-21-2019, 07:56:14 PM
dkamp dkamp is offline
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Default Re: E15 in Newer Cars

If you managed from 13, to 11, you're doing incredibly well... that's a 15% reduction in gallons/distance.

Common gasoline averages about 114,000btu per gallon.
Ethanol (if it's pure) yields only 76,100btu per gallon
That's 1/3rd LESS energy per gallon.

Given that E85 is SUPPOSED to contain 15% gasoline, we'd calculate that to yield about 17100btu of gasoline, and 64685btu of ethanol, for 81875btu/gallon for E85 mix.

Against 114kbtu/gal gasoline, that's an energy reduction of 30%.

IF ethanol wasn't aggressively hygroscopic, and didn't settle out at the gas station's bulk tank, or in the machine's fuel tank, and didn't chew away at seals and corrode fuel lines, a 15% penalty in fuel volume/distance economy might be justifiable... provided the pump price was more than 15% lower, but at our pumps, it's certainly NOT.
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  #32  
Old 10-21-2019, 08:16:26 PM
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Default Re: E15 in Newer Cars

Well the trouble in my opionion with the "non ethel" gas is the preservitives are not in it and it gets old in the tank at the station before you buy it. So it might very well give some trouble as time goes by.
I know in 2003 I went thru Ohio in my 91 F150 and there was 4 pumps.1 was a 86 octane and it was cheaper!DUH, that truck never has been quite the same.I don't know what the heck was in that fuel but it was not good pulling a camper.
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  #33  
Old 10-22-2019, 11:21:11 PM
Wayne 440 Wayne 440 is offline
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Default Re: E15 in Newer Cars

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...65,000 miles...each year...oil/filter changes on 2500 mile intervals...
An oil change every 2 weeks?
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  #34  
Old 10-24-2019, 01:25:01 AM
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An oil change every 2 weeks?
Yep. We go through lots of tires, too... and the trucks get changed out before they hit 100k... well... that's what they TRY to do... sometimes they wind up around 110, depends on how fast delivery comes.
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  #35  
Old 10-24-2019, 07:03:24 PM
Wayne 440 Wayne 440 is offline
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Default Re: E15 in Newer Cars

I recall similar days of replacing our fleet vehicles at 100K, and 3K mile oil changes. Now we go 5K on oil and replace vehicles less often. We have kept a few light trucks until 240K.
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Old 10-24-2019, 08:59:57 PM
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Default Re: E15 in Newer Cars

Somebody needs to explain to me why we're still using ethanol.
Originally, we were convinced that the world was running out of petroleum deposits, and we needed to burn ethanol to conserve the petroleum.
So, thanks to the government, we all dug deep into our tax pockets, subsidized the production of ethanol from corn, and diluted our gasoline 10% with the stuff.
Now, we're told that we're awash in petroleum to the point that the U.S. is the number one producer of oil in the world, and a net exporter of the stuff.
So, why do we still need ethanol fuel? And further, why is the ethanol content expected to soon be increased to 15% of our gasoline volume?

Some argue that the ethanol fuel burns cleaner and helps to save the environment. Maybe. ????
But consider where the ethanol comes from.
It is distilled from corn, using guess what? Petroleum. Environmentally polluting petroleum.

I understand that selling corn for ethanol production is a big market for corn farmers, so essentially, government mandated ethanol fuel is another farm subsidy, but that's another subject.

Aside from that subsidy to farmers, there is no economic benefit or environmental benefit to using ethanol gasoline. Distilling ethanol for gasoline is not an energy saving. It is a net energy loss, as described in the article attached below. We would be much better off converting petroleum directly to gasoline than using it to distill ethanol. The excerpt below is from one of many sources I found that describes the relationship between ethanol and gasoline. What am I missing here?

Adding up the energy costs of corn production and its conversion to ethanol, 131,000 Btu are needed to make 1 gallon of ethanol. One gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 Btu. "Put another way," Pimentel said, "about 70 percent more energy is required to produce ethanol than the energy that actually is in ethanol. Every time you make 1 gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 Btu."

* Ethanol from corn costs about $1.74 per gallon to produce, compared with about 95 cents to produce a gallon of gasoline. "That helps explain why fossil fuels -- not ethanol -- are used to produce ethanol," Pimentel said. "The growers and processors can't afford to burn ethanol to make ethanol. U.S. drivers couldn't afford it either, if it weren't for government subsidies to artificially lower the price."

Last edited by CharlieB; 10-24-2019 at 09:45:48 PM.
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Old 10-25-2019, 08:56:41 PM
Wayne 440 Wayne 440 is offline
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Default Re: E15 in Newer Cars

My take is that corn is for eating and (indirectly) drinking. My thinking is that the USA would be far better off to go back to using actual gasoline, and that it should be illegal to call any ethanol blended fuel "gasoline."
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  #38  
Old 11-02-2019, 04:16:11 PM
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Default Re: E15 in Newer Cars

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My take is that corn is for eating and (indirectly) drinking. My thinking is that the USA would be far better off to go back to using actual gasoline, and that it should be illegal to call any ethanol blended fuel "gasoline."
I second that motion. Calling it 'octane boost' is also a grossly misleading misrepresentation, and the myriad of propoganda campaign concepts used is vile.

I also hold the opinion that if a man chooses to run his old diesel truck on waste vegatable oil, wood gas or propane or natural gas, or any OTHER 'alternative fuel', there should NOT be a burdonsome, complex bureaucratic impedance to his doing so. Pay some reasonable base 'road tax', and call it good.
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Old 11-09-2019, 11:38:22 AM
Festus 42 Festus 42 is offline
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Default Re: E15 in Newer Cars

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Originally Posted by CharlieB View Post
Somebody needs to explain to me why we're still using ethanol.
Originally, we were convinced that the world was running out of petroleum deposits, and we needed to burn ethanol to conserve the petroleum.
So, thanks to the government, we all dug deep into our tax pockets, subsidized the production of ethanol from corn, and diluted our gasoline 10% with the stuff.
Now, we're told that we're awash in petroleum to the point that the U.S. is the number one producer of oil in the world, and a net exporter of the stuff.
So, why do we still need ethanol fuel? And further, why is the ethanol content expected to soon be increased to 15% of our gasoline volume?

Some argue that the ethanol fuel burns cleaner and helps to save the environment. Maybe. ????
But consider where the ethanol comes from.
It is distilled from corn, using guess what? Petroleum. Environmentally polluting petroleum.

I understand that selling corn for ethanol production is a big market for corn farmers, so essentially, government mandated ethanol fuel is another farm subsidy, but that's another subject.

Aside from that subsidy to farmers, there is no economic benefit or environmental benefit to using ethanol gasoline. Distilling ethanol for gasoline is not an energy saving. It is a net energy loss, as described in the article attached below. We would be much better off converting petroleum directly to gasoline than using it to distill ethanol. The excerpt below is from one of many sources I found that describes the relationship between ethanol and gasoline. What am I missing here?

Adding up the energy costs of corn production and its conversion to ethanol, 131,000 Btu are needed to make 1 gallon of ethanol. One gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 Btu. "Put another way," Pimentel said, "about 70 percent more energy is required to produce ethanol than the energy that actually is in ethanol. Every time you make 1 gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 Btu."

* Ethanol from corn costs about $1.74 per gallon to produce, compared with about 95 cents to produce a gallon of gasoline. "That helps explain why fossil fuels -- not ethanol -- are used to produce ethanol," Pimentel said. "The growers and processors can't afford to burn ethanol to make ethanol. U.S. drivers couldn't afford it either, if it weren't for government subsidies to artificially lower the price."
Frankly, I don't trust Pimentel's opinion on the matter since his figures fall out with the pack.
Sure, there's a chance his figures are right and all others are wrong, but that seems unlikely.

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