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Steam vs Diesel


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  #1  
Old 06-22-2019, 03:43:55 PM
sftyvlv1 sftyvlv1 is offline
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Default Steam vs Diesel

Steam's better.
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Old 06-22-2019, 05:20:36 PM
Big Bird Big Bird is offline
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Default Re: Steam vs Diesel

Man are you that bored....
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  #3  
Old 06-22-2019, 08:16:33 PM
sftyvlv1 sftyvlv1 is offline
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Default Re: Steam vs Diesel

Thought this would liven things up.
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Old 06-22-2019, 11:23:09 PM
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ulgydog56 ulgydog56 is offline
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Default Re: Steam vs Diesel

steam is way cool, but way more upkeep and man power and cost more to operate, that why they were fazed out in the 1950s...hate to say it ..
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Old 06-23-2019, 12:08:11 AM
sftyvlv1 sftyvlv1 is offline
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Default Re: Steam vs Diesel

Not entirely true.
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Old 06-23-2019, 04:34:19 AM
mihit mihit is offline
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Default Re: Steam vs Diesel

Quote:
Originally Posted by sftyvlv1 View Post
Steam's better.
Step 2: Give evidence to support your hypothesis.
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  #7  
Old 06-23-2019, 08:22:50 AM
sftyvlv1 sftyvlv1 is offline
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Default Re: Steam vs Diesel

https://youtu.be/9w48Bqq1JmE
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Old 06-23-2019, 12:27:14 PM
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FWurth FWurth is offline
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Default Re: Steam vs Diesel

Beautiful piece of propaganda advertising from the past. NW RR were not wanting to spend the cash to switch to diesel. So they simply fixed up their existing roster and went on a PR campaign to extoll their wisdom of steam in order to compete with the more modern competitors. They had the coal and related steam facilities already and could continue their program far cheaper than the major cost of changing to diesel. But the drawbacks of steam vs diesel were still there and they eventually did convert in order to cut personel expenses. Diesel operation required less than half of the work force.
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Old 06-23-2019, 01:58:38 PM
Vanman Vanman is offline
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Default Re: Steam vs Diesel

To simply say one is better than the other is like saying one brand of car is better than the other. Many, many variables.

Are you talking efficiency of turning fuel energy into drawbar hp?

Fuel required during standby?

Versatility of types of fuel that can be used?

Tractive effort vs adhesive weight vs total weight?

Effects on the track?

Comfort for the crew?

Time required from "cold and dark" to on the move?

FUEL required from "cold and dark" to on the move lol?

Did any steamers have Air Conditioning?

Can you MU them?

I always wondered about the capacity of the air compressor and how fast you could pump up a given train.

I'm sure we can think of many more...

Keith
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Old 06-23-2019, 09:22:38 PM
sftyvlv1 sftyvlv1 is offline
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Default Re: Steam vs Diesel

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Originally Posted by FWurth View Post
Beautiful piece of propaganda advertising from the past. NW RR were not wanting to spend the cash to switch to diesel. So they simply fixed up their existing roster and went on a PR campaign to extoll their wisdom of steam in order to compete with the more modern competitors. They had the coal and related steam facilities already and could continue their program far cheaper than the major cost of changing to diesel. But the drawbacks of steam vs diesel were still there and they eventually did convert in order to cut personel expenses. Diesel operation required less than half of the work force.
Fw,
They did not "fix up" their existing roster.
They in fact designed and built the most reliable up to date steam locomotives in North America.
N&W built simple articulated engines with 70 inch drivers that would run 65+.
They also built the only modern compounds long after most roads had given up on them.
The 70" drivers on their 4-8-4's could and did regularly spin at 500 rpm.
These engines although not the most complex where reliable, easily serviced engines that required no special maintenance or training to operate.
They made money.
Trains magazine has done efficiency and reliability articles in the past and these high pressure, roller bearing, limited cutoff, pressure lubricated, coal burning engines rated extremely high in those articles.
It has been said EMD in the 40's and 50's had used some "shady" sales tactics on roads that did not want to participate. So much so that some roads were told "purchase our diesels or else".
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Old 06-23-2019, 09:26:14 PM
sftyvlv1 sftyvlv1 is offline
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Default Re: Steam vs Diesel

Vanman,
Ever heard of the Ace 3000.
Here's a picture.Click image for larger version

Name:	ACE_Concept.jpg
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Old 06-23-2019, 09:56:07 PM
Vanman Vanman is offline
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Default Re: Steam vs Diesel

Yes! I had forgotten about the ACE 3000, but I do remember. I think that was a fantastic project!

Don't get me wrong. I am certainly not anti-steam. Or anti-diesel. Just saying they each have they're own merits and drawbacks.

Keith
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Old 06-23-2019, 11:16:53 PM
Railroads Railroads is offline
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Default Re: Steam vs Diesel

Quote:
Originally Posted by sftyvlv1 View Post
Fw,
They did not "fix up" their existing roster.
They in fact designed and built the most reliable up to date steam locomotives in North America.
N&W built simple articulated engines with 70 inch drivers that would run 65+.
They also built the only modern compounds long after most roads had given up on them.
The 70" drivers on their 4-8-4's could and did regularly spin at 500 rpm.
These engines although not the most complex where reliable, easily serviced engines that required no special maintenance or training to operate.
They made money.
Trains magazine has done efficiency and reliability articles in the past and these high pressure, roller bearing, limited cutoff, pressure lubricated, coal burning engines rated extremely high in those articles.
It has been said EMD in the 40's and 50's had used some "shady" sales tactics on roads that did not want to participate. So much so that some roads were told "purchase our diesels or else".
The N&W had a simple expansion design in mind for the Y class. The massive Y7. I would loved to have seen a N&W Y7 pitted against the other well known giants.

Keith, I've studied the ACE 3000 several times. A very interesting project that sadly didn't materialize. The Brits didn't have any luck building a modern 4-6-0, the 5AT.

Robert
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Old 06-24-2019, 12:09:51 AM
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Default Re: Steam vs Diesel

Yes, we all know that Roanoke shops built their own units. Like most all RR's they also reused existing chassis for the base of many of the new models which included the latest super power designs. And we all heard of the 4 Aces demonstrator used by one of the big loco builders ( Alco I think) it demonstrated on many lines. But as efficient as it was, the Roads all went the modern diesel route to cut back on over head, Steam was out and no amount of crying was going to bring it back. G. M. was building diesels and financing then to boot, the roads could close own their erecting shops, get rid of most of the their loco maintenance crews and half of the engine crews, simply by using diesels. Practically over night they could turn a bare bones profit margin back into the black.
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Old 06-24-2019, 07:57:08 PM
sftyvlv1 sftyvlv1 is offline
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Default Re: Steam vs Diesel

Once again I refer you to some of the articles in Trains magazine. Robert Massena was the author and researcher on this very subject.
According to his findings what your saying about diesel locomotives "ain't neccesarily so".
It would be interesting to compare the cost of diesel/gallon vs coal/pound and then do an efficiency test with say 611 or 4014 against a modern day EMD product.
Back in the day you needed multiple F7's or Jeeps to come close to the engines I just mentioned.
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Old 06-24-2019, 10:11:50 PM
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Default Re: Steam vs Diesel

You can't compare present day ( hind sight ) economics to the economics that existed in 50s. One present day pro steam magazine author has little expertise compared with the many managers and executives of main line Rail Roads and their economic realities of the period. Present day main line diesels are considerably more fuel efficient than the old diesels of even the recent past and put out close to 5000 hp. per unit. Also only one crew is required to handle any number of units on a single train. Also you don't need to worry about boiler explosions or the like.
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Old 06-25-2019, 12:56:29 PM
casertractor casertractor is offline
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Default Re: Steam vs Diesel

Steam is king for me
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Old 06-26-2019, 01:50:14 PM
Ashton Ashton is offline
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Default Re: Steam vs Diesel

Economics aside, steam is certainly more romantic. The sound of a steam engine chugging away and the pillar of smoke curling up above the trees..............


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foAtqmDpAQ0
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Old 06-26-2019, 02:16:37 PM
David Hoover David Hoover is offline
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Default Re: Steam vs Diesel

Bring back steam and employ the people. Efficiency can be detrimental in the long run of the survival of a work force.
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Old 06-28-2019, 09:00:42 PM
Railroads Railroads is offline
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Default Re: Steam vs Diesel

I seem to remember Mr. Rowland discussing his C&O 614 getting only 6% of every fuel dollar to the rail to do useable work. The hope of the ACE 3000 was to get 16%. Most diesel electrics are said to be 85% efficient.

Steam vs today's AC traction diesels are really no comparison. Might have been a different story back in the days of the early diesel locomotives. Today though it would be very hard to beat the AC induction traction motor and it's VFD/inverter drive. They also have far superior wheel slip control to what was available in the early years.

Robert
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