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Briggs & Stratton 5s - Where to start restoring?


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  #41  
Old 03-31-2005, 12:07:03 PM
Chuck Parcher (Ks.) Chuck Parcher (Ks.) is offline
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Default Re: Briggs & Stratton 5s - Where to start restoring?

Like Leonard says, It's pretty much up to personal choice. As far WAL-MART oil I think you'll find that it's petty good quality, probably as good or better than the oil was when the 5s was new. A member (Oil Engineer) here on the STAK awhile back stated that as long as the oil was up to spec. on the container, regardless of the brand, it is pretty much the same stuff. $4.00 a qt. oil with the same spec. as $1.19 a qt. oil is'nt going to work any better or make much of a difference, especially in a little engine that is'nt doing a lot of work.

CHUCK
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  #42  
Old 03-31-2005, 01:06:06 PM
Bill Sherlock Bill Sherlock is offline
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Default Re: Briggs & Stratton 5s - Where to start restoring?

I've used nothing but #30 heavy duty detergent oils (various brands) in all my 4 cycle air cooled engines. Only time I would ever use a multigrade oil in an air cooled engine is when temperature starts dipping below freezing. Main thing is to change oil regularly and keep the air cleaner serviced.

My lawnmower engines have long outlasted the neighbour's who used 10W30 oil in his and I mow probably easily 5 times or more the area.

Bill
  #43  
Old 03-31-2005, 01:19:04 PM
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Default Re: Briggs & Stratton 5s - Where to start restoring?

Ok.. dumb questions here

1. What are the merits of using diesel vs kerosene for the crankcase cleanout?

2. I'm assuming .. I shouldn't need to pull the bottom cover in this resoration.. if at all possible?

3. Do I just fill the crankcase with diesel or kerosense and leave it .. or do I need to slosh it around.. or... ?

4. My gut tells me that diesel or kerosene counteracts/destroys the purpose and quality of the oil I'll add later.. so.. once I'm done cleaning the case... how do I get the residue out before adding the good stuff (oil).

5. Lastly.. what do you do with the old waste kero / diesel. Dad used to pour the old motor oil from our cars out on the ground. Not to environmentally friendly. I like my clean water.


Thanks many times over... I'm soaking in all this advice..

Dave

Last edited by gearedsteam; 03-31-2005 at 01:27:00 PM.
  #44  
Old 03-31-2005, 01:46:32 PM
Bill Sherlock Bill Sherlock is offline
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Default Re: Briggs & Stratton 5s - Where to start restoring?

Dave,

Don't think it would matter much, which you used, kerosene v/s diesel for rinsing out the crankcase. I'd let it soak for a time and then slosh it around before draining. Maybe even do it a second time if it looked like it needed it.

I don't think you need to worry about the little bit of kerosene or diesel fuel remaining after draining the crankcase. Both have lubricating properties, in fact kerosene is sometimes added to hydraulic systems in cold climates to thin out the hydraulic oil to speed up the operation of cylinders.

I don't know if you have a parts cleaner tank, I just add the used kersosene or diesel to it. Still good enough to clean gears etc. If the tank isn't covered it will eventually evaporate anyway. Then there's always the burning barrel, helps to burn the paper scraps etc.

Bill
  #45  
Old 03-31-2005, 01:55:23 PM
Chuck Parcher (Ks.) Chuck Parcher (Ks.) is offline
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Default Re: Briggs & Stratton 5s - Where to start restoring?

I think the biggest reason to use diesel over kerosene. is the price, and availability. I saw 5gal. cans of kerosene up for sale at a farm store and the price was $25.00 a can, maybe at a place that sells BULK, the price might be less, or elsewhere in the US. I don't know. I think the diesel mix has more oil in it, I don't know for sure but I think that's what I heard. Slosh it around in there, drain, and repeat until it starts running clean. You said that there was alot of GOO in the crankcase (water/oil mix) this should get it out. Drain-- put in a qt. of oil run the engine at low speed for awhile.....5 or 10 mins. then drain and refill with another qt. this should flush out the diesel, or Kerosene. You should have a fairly clean engine then. Someone said to clean out the old gas in the tank, and the fuel line (Pick up) with acetone to get out the old varnish etc. I would agree, vinagar will work for the rust, but I don't know if it will desolve the varnish. I doubt it.
Anyway........
CHUCK
  #46  
Old 03-31-2005, 01:55:48 PM
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Default Re: Briggs & Stratton 5s - Where to start restoring?

Dumb answers ( there's not a one of us here who hasn't asked just about every question you have, Dave)
1-Probably personal preference as to Diesel or Kerosene. Kerosene is a bit thinner than diesel and may be a little quicker to dissolve.
2- I think I'd recommend taking the bottom cover off to inspect the innards. The big thing you want to see in there is a long "V" shaped piece extending down from the connecting rod. It's called an "oil dipper" and it's responsible for spashing oil throughout the crankcase. I've opened up 5S engines and found this broken. The engine won't run very long without it. Later engines used a different design, I assume it was because this type was somewhat prone to failure.
While you have the oil pan off you can easily clean the sludge with whatever you choose.
3&4- If you opt to leave the crankcase a mystery for the time being you'll need to do some sloshing to help loosen whatever is in there.
Don't worry about any residual Diesel or Kerosene in the crankcase. Many folks (myself included) have filled the crank case with one of these and let the engine idle for 10 minutes or so without a load to help flush it out. There is enough lubricity (like that word?LOL) to not cause any real damage to the engine in that short time. If it really bothers you just refill the engine with oil when you've finished sloshing and draining and run the engine til it's good and warm then drain and refill again.
5- Just take the waste oil and diesel/kerosene to a Quick Change oil change place or many auto parts stores collect waste. Diesel and Kerosene are both petroleum products so it shouldn't be a problem to dump them there.

Sounds to me like we're gonna be reading in the near future that you had your engine running! By the way...did you get the flywheel off yet?

Thanks Harry!
  #47  
Old 03-31-2005, 02:03:27 PM
Bill Sherlock Bill Sherlock is offline
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Default Re: Briggs & Stratton 5s - Where to start restoring?

Speaking of kerosene, I think price depends on whether it's the non smelly kind especially refined for use in the indoor kerosene heaters that were popular a few years ago. The regular kerosene was considerably cheaper but you probably have to get it from a bulk fuel dealer. Probably easier to find varsol, which should work just as well as kerosene or diesel fuel.

Bill
  #48  
Old 03-31-2005, 02:27:52 PM
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Default Re: Briggs & Stratton 5s - Where to start restoring?

Thanks guys for the advice. I think I'm leaning toward kerosene cause it is a little thinner.

Neale... I've not pulled the flywheel yet. Remember I'm like a kid in a candy store... the flywheel is a Snickers & the crankcase is a Butter Finger.

Help this old boy out.. which do I do next.. flywheel pull or crankcase cleaning?

I do think I'm gonna pull crankcase cover just to have a look and educate Richard (the son) and myself. This is restoration is as much if not more for education than fun... it will be both of course. Got Richard a toolset this past Xmas.. and he has a kick out of using HIS own tooks. He makes a good parts cleaner too. Grease & oil up to his elbows.. with a smile on his face.

Back to the salt mines
Thank you all...

Dave
  #49  
Old 03-31-2005, 06:23:34 PM
Leonard Keifer Leonard Keifer is offline
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Default Re: Briggs & Stratton 5s - Where to start restoring?

Chuck said add a quart of oil. That's way too much oil for a 5S, should take a pint or a little less. Since you've ordered a gasket set you'd want to take the base off the engine anyway to replace that gasket, It's probably the one most prone to leaking.

Besides, with the base and the head off you get to see all of the neat parts move, something you can't do with it all closed up. Makes it easier to clean the gunk out too.

A father a son at 4H I sold an engine to took every thing off that they could possibly take off (not recommended), even things I would never think of taking off. I'm not sure whether they got it back together or not but they sure had fun.
  #50  
Old 03-31-2005, 07:06:05 PM
Chuck Parcher (Ks.) Chuck Parcher (Ks.) is offline
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Default Re: Briggs & Stratton 5s - Where to start restoring?

Obviously, or until FULL. with engine setting absolutly level and checked for level accuracy with a laser, and several satalites. When it starts to run out of the fill hole don't put any more in. If you pressurized to 8,000,000 PSI ,maybe it would fit in. For GOD's don't put twice as much in it than it will hold. When it starts running onto the floor you might think it's too much. If you start it with the fill cap off, you'll have to keep stopping it, then refilling it, then restarting it. over and over, and over until you decide to quit power flushing it, and put the cap back on. Common sense is kind of a neat thing to try to use in these situations. If you use more than a case of oil a day, something might not be right. or you could go to the store, and buy a pint of oil and save some money. unless you leave the fill cap off. Let's see 50+ years of working on engines, how did I ever miss this stuff. From now on I'll never put more of one thing into another if it won't hold it. When I said to run the engine for 5 or 10 min. then drain the oil and refill again, let's see, let me knit pick this to death. If I fill it twice at a pint each time, GEE that would just about equal 1 qt. or 2 1pt containers if I drive18,000 miles looking for a regular store that sells motor oil in pint containers. I think it would be easier to buy 1 quart. fill the crankcase until full, put the cap back on. run it, drain it, re- fill it and not worry about it until it's time to change the oil again. but I guess that would require the proper manual to figure something that complicated out.

Good Luck with your engine, they can be a great bonding, and learning experience for both of you.

CHUCK
  #51  
Old 04-01-2005, 09:22:35 AM
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Thumbs up Re: Briggs & Stratton 5s - Where to start restoring?

Chuck.. I'm laughing out loud

Where were you on Monday when I needed this humor? I love it. Thank you.

Progress Report========================================

1. Bought some kerosene.. and put a some (less than the full gallon ) into the crank case.. did some sloshing and letting it stand overnight. Will drain tonight and re-do.

2. Still struggling with trying to get the muffler & pipe elbow freed from the head. Were PB Blasting it out the wazooo.. & letting it sit... tapping it and it won't budge with a pipe wrench. Going to try PB again tonight & then graduate to Marvel Mystery Oil. I guess after that.. it's time to heat the head next to the pipe. I read something in this message forum where heating the stuck object itself.. letting it completely cool and then trying it might work. Not much on physics myself... but seems odd it would shrink..

3. Going to PB Blaster the flywheel nut, buy some clothes line rope (thanks Mike Murphy of NC) and work on removing the flywheel.. following the suggetions above.

================================================== ==

Off to the salt mines...

I've been around .. but this group of folks on this forum are the most friendly, helpfull & courtious folks (to one another and to me) that I have been around in many years. Keep the gene pool going! Almost forgot to thank Harry for this wonderfull site

As always.. you fellows are simply the best.

Dave

Last edited by gearedsteam; 04-01-2005 at 09:36:21 AM.
  #52  
Old 04-01-2005, 10:02:13 AM
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Default Re: Briggs & Stratton 5s - Where to start restoring?

Getting the stuck elbow and muffler loose will generate as many opinions as asking what type penetratiing oil is best. Here's my suggestions:
1-sometimes it's easier to break the rust bond on threads by actually trying to tighten it and then loosen it then tighten then loosen..a back and forth motion (or attempt at motion).
2.An option you have with the pipe elbow that you don't have with a stuck bolt is collapsing it. Take a small blunt punch and pound on the elbow right against the engine block (CAUTION!!! It is possible to break the cast iron across from where you are pounding. Try to collapse the elbow on the side opposite the thickest part of the exhaust port.) You may wind up poking a hole in the piece before it starts to collapse. Just move the punch over a little and try again. That's why you want a blunt punch. Once the pipe or elbow starts to collapse it's not too difficult to keep the process going until the piece has loosened enough to screw out.
Here's the good part...another cool tool(s) you can buy. A pipe tap will make it a whole lot easier to clean those threads out for installing a new muffler. Since you aren't cutting threads but just chasing them the tap doesn't have to be of the best quality. Northern Tool has a 6pc set for $44.99 that will cover most any size you'll encounter with small engines.
The flywheel nut shouldn't be too big of chore. I don't recall ever having to do battle to get one off. You can make a strap wrench to hold the flywheel from an old leather belt or a piece of sturdy nylon webbing and a pair of vise grips. It doesn't work great but it usually does well enough. If the head is still on the engine you can just use Mike's rope in the cylinder trick too.

Thanks Harry
  #53  
Old 04-01-2005, 11:31:13 AM
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Thumbs up Re: Briggs & Stratton 5s - Where to start restoring?

Neale..

Tighten then loosen.. sounds like a good deal. Makes d*mn good sense .. I just wish I had some Sometimes the simplest things are way overlooked. As the folks way back used to say... "If it'd been a snake .. it'd bit you".

Collapsing the pipe would be a scarry chore. This sucker is in good shape.. and there isn't much rust on the threads as I might have illuded to.. it's just froze. Even tried to pull off the muffler itself with a pipe wrench, then adjustable wrench & finally a strap wrench... all it did was put a dent in the side of the muffler. I like strap wrenches ... used them when I used to change the oil on my car.. back before I got lazy

The real world l practical knowledge we are getting from everone here is an unexpected plus!

2 de salt mines again...

dave
  #54  
Old 04-01-2005, 11:32:55 AM
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Default Re: Briggs & Stratton 5s - Where to start restoring?

I have torn down a few small engines...and the fly wheels were always the biggest pain. What I have found that works well is a few shots of liquid wrench (or what ever oil you choose...Dont want to cause an argument). Then after a half hour or so, pull out the BIG WOODEN MALLET. Tap lightley all around the outside of the fly wheel and any where else that seems conveniant. It has worked very well for me.

Mac Leod
  #55  
Old 04-01-2005, 11:32:56 AM
Leonard Keifer Leonard Keifer is offline
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Default Re: Briggs & Stratton 5s - Where to start restoring?

Something else to try with your stuck exhaust pipe: give it a good whack with a hammer (not too big or too small a hammer) as if you were going to drive it directly into the block, then spary with a little more PB Blaster. Let it sit and try later with the pipe wrench. I worked on getting one pipe out of a Briggs Y block for 6 months, off and on.

With any of this old rusty iron, patience is the key. Work on the exhaust pipe for a while, then go to another part and come back to the pipe later.

Neale, I like your idea for a home-made strap wrench.

As for the 1/2 inch pipe thread tap for the exhaust, I found one for a couple of bucks at a flea market.
  #56  
Old 04-01-2005, 12:34:41 PM
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Default Re: Briggs & Stratton 5s - Where to start restoring?

On my first 5s, I had a stuck nipple in the exhaust. Whenever we tried to remove it, it just wanted to collapse. We shoved the handle of a cheap ratchet in there and then grabbed it with a pipe wrench, heated up the block with a torch (not too hot!!!) and got out the hammer and beat the H*ll out of the wrench. It came out on the first try.

The Simple Serf
  #57  
Old 04-01-2005, 01:20:35 PM
Leonard Keifer Leonard Keifer is offline
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Default Re: Briggs & Stratton 5s - Where to start restoring?

Congratuations, Dave. I think your question has generated the most response of any restoration related question in a long time.
  #58  
Old 04-01-2005, 02:06:31 PM
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Elden DuRand Elden DuRand is offline
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Default Re: Briggs & Stratton 5s - Where to start restoring?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gearedsteam
2. Still struggling with trying to get the muffler & pipe elbow freed from the head. Were PB Blasting it out the wazooo.. & letting it sit... tapping it and it won't budge with a pipe wrench.
You gotta be kind of careful with some of those old air cooled engines. If you beat on the exhaust elbow too hard, you could break the port off the block - then, it's into the junkpile with it.

You might want to look for a jam nut on the male threads where it screws into the block. It's thin and has places where you can put a punch to unscrew it. These are used so the exhaust can be pointed where you want it to go without having to tighten the h... out of it to make it point right.

If you've got the jam nut, just use a hammer and punch (the Redneck way is to use one of your good screwdrivers)to turn the nut back from the casting. If it's frozen to the threads and won't move, use a cold chisel to nick it so it can be broken off (they're cheap and expendable).

If, after removing the jam nut, it still won't unscrew, what -I- do is to cut the pipe off real close to the casting then, with a hacksaw blade, cut a slot lengthwise inside the pipe to just when you hit the threads. Then tap the pipe with the chisel at the split you've made to collapse it into itself. Usually, all you have to do is start collapsing it and it will turn out with your fingers or pliers.

Patience, patience!

Take care - Elden
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  #59  
Old 04-04-2005, 08:30:17 AM
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Progress Report=====================================

We finally got the muffler removed ... yeehawww


See photos here:

http://community.webshots.com/album/314171119ONGLdQ?355


Started with Liquid Wrench, then PB Blaster 3 days later, finally Marvel Mystery Oil a couple day's after that.

The elbow pipe finally gave way with some persuasion with a 10" pipe wrench. I wish I'd had a longer pipe wrench or cheater bar.. but sometimes too big a tool or too much force sometimes ends up breaking something. I tried the pipe wrench, channel lock pliers, and a strap wrench on the muffler but it would never budge, so I used the pliers to squeese the devil out of its mid section. Then it would clear the head as I unscrewed the elbow.

I did try to tighten then loosten the elbow, but that didn't seem to help.. but who knows.. it was more than likely a combination of everything.

The best tools were Patience, Perseverance, & Persistence ... JUST as you folks had highly recommended.

Next we will remove the flywheel. It'll probably be this weekend or later as we have a engine show to go to in Sheridan, AR this weekend (April, 8) .

Stay tuned...

Thank you for all your support & advise.

Dave & Richard Thomas

Last edited by gearedsteam; 04-04-2005 at 08:48:36 AM.
  #60  
Old 04-04-2005, 11:50:05 PM
Andrew Mackey Andrew Mackey is offline
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Exclamation Re: Briggs & Stratton 5s - Where to start restoring?

The CJ-8 is an oil firing plug made for 2 cycle engines, It will work, but a better choice is the J 17-LM. If you are into a more authentic original plug, then the J8-J is more like the original plug (resister type). If you go to engine shows, pick up a Champion J-8, with the small black or red print on the insulater - that plug is the original for the B&S 5-S. The starter rope is 5/16" diameter, 2 feet long, with a figure 8 knot at the cup end. The 'ledge' you see in the plug hole, is probably the edge of the cylender bore! If you got emulsified oil out of the engine drain, then removal of the engine base plate is warrented. You want to make sure there is no rust on the crank, the timing gears, and that the con rod is not scored. Wtih the piston being stuck, its remaval is also warrented, to check condition of the engine bore and the rings. If the rings or the bore is rusted, a hone job and ring replacement is needed. The head will have to be removed. While you are there, clearance and lap the valves. I believe the clearances are: 0.010 for the exhaust, and .008 for the intake. Check the engine ID plate to be sure - the clearances are on the plate. Have fun, and good luck!
I have an experimental 5-S that was built by B&S, to run on Alcohol. The engine head is machined to raise compression, timing is slightly advanced from standard, the carb is jetted differently, and the engine runs like a bat out of h--l! Did I mention HIGH compression? The engine has super high compression! If you do not back it off against the compression stroke, to get a running start over the first compression stroke, you will not be able to turn it over! When hot, it is doubly hard to spin over. The engine is mounted on a Kellog Air compressor. A number of years ago, the engine was stolen from my garage . A couple of kids took it to put on a mini bike. After a few days, one of their friends as ked me to look at a mini bike they had, the engine would not run. Talk about stupid criminals! Any ways, I got the engine back - with a broken crankshaft! The kids broke it when they could not start the engine on gas! It took me 4 years to locate another crank, as this one is not a stock item - again it was an experimental.
Andrew
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