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Phase a Matic questions


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  #1  
Old 12-16-2015, 01:21:15 AM
uglyblue66 uglyblue66 is offline
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Default Phase a Matic questions

I got a hydrolic press a couple years ago that runs on 3 phase. I am finally in a position to buy a phase a matic to run it.
I am looking at this unit ,

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Phase-A-Mati...3D321945546425

I am not sure of the hp of the motor so I am thinking buy this 1 and make sure it is heavy enough.
MY question is, is there any problems if my motor is say,only 2 hp using this convertor?
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  #2  
Old 12-16-2015, 02:49:38 AM
Greg Mosley Greg Mosley is offline
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Default Re: Phase a Matic questions

Yes, they must be sized correctly. Enuf Said.
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Old 12-16-2015, 06:35:55 AM
ChipTosser ChipTosser is offline
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Default Re: Phase a Matic questions

The description on that unit says 4-8 hp
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  #4  
Old 12-16-2015, 08:12:46 AM
uglyblue66 uglyblue66 is offline
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Default Re: Phase a Matic questions

The tag is gone from my motor and from what I was told it is around 5 hp.
The heaters in the box are rated for almost 17 amps. So 4 to 8 may be the route I need to go
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  #5  
Old 12-16-2015, 11:39:35 AM
I like oldstuff I like oldstuff is offline
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Default Re: Phase a Matic questions

Now THAT is a press!
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Old 12-16-2015, 01:13:04 PM
Greg Mosley Greg Mosley is offline
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Default Re: Phase a Matic questions

Greetings, I do like your press. I thought about this a bit and have a possible solution. Get connected to a factory rep. on this issue. Many companies sell direct and have electrical engineers you can actually speak with. They will troubleshoot and guide you through the selection process. Explain your dilemma. Check Ebay to start with and find a contact #. There are many factory vendors there. That static converter your looking at I believe is geared for two speed motor apps. A company I deal with is North American Rotary Converter. They are great people and know what there doing. Enuf Said

---------- Post added at 11:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:58 AM ----------

Just another thought. Is that motor a proprietary unit? If not, do some shopping and repower with a 220v single phase motor and starter. You have to use 220 volt for the converter anyhow. If the motor is 208/220 three phase. If you elect to use what you have please check all your circuits and mag starter carefully. Also check what voltage the magnet is in the starter. I wound rewire the unit just due to age. Enuf Said.
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Old 12-16-2015, 07:55:08 PM
s100 s100 is offline
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Default Re: Phase a Matic questions

I would NOT buy that converter. I recently bought a drill press that had the same brand "converter" included. These are a butt-simple start capacitor and sensing relay unit that, once the motor is up to speed, click out of the circuit and you are simply single-phasing the motor, which means at best two thirds rated power output. I've got a 60 ton Manley press that rarely sees over 15 - 20 tons. If your use will be like mine, two thirds may be OK. But if you are gonna be a red hot squeezer, you may well run out of power.

The solution here is actually pretty simple. For the price of that thing or less, you should be able to buy yourself a really nice used rotary converter, which if it is big enough does not care what HP motor you have. You still won't see 100% of nameplate horsepower, but much closer than what you will achieve with the unit you pictured.

Rotary converters are simple. If you have a friend or acquaintance who is an electrician and a bit of a scrounger, he should be able to build you one for very low cost. I'm not sure how much starting load that hydraulic pump will place on the motor, but the rotary is much more forgiving here as well as it will start motors which are more loaded than what a static will start.

An added advantage of the rotary is, should you come across other 3 phase machines for your shop, the rotary will start and run them as well, regardless of their HP, so long as, as stated above, the rotary is sized to start the biggest motor. As a rule of thumb, the rotary converter's idler motor should be 1 1/2 times the size of the biggest motor you want to run. If you are looking at things like compressors, you may need to go 2X. If your loads are easy starting, 1 1/2 times is very adequate.

And to reiterate for clarity, while the Rotary does not care what size motor you run with it, the static MUST be sized to the machine motor to get best results. You can't say, well, I have a 2HP motor so the 5HP static converter will be plenty big enough. Trying this will result in a motor that does not start properly or that does not start at all. Too big is just as bad as too small with the static converters.

Another thought, if you don't like the idea of having a separate motor to start and run your press motor (it is a bit clunky) for the price you are looking at you should be able to buy a VFD to run the press. You will need to have someone install the thing and set it up for you, but this is likely true with the static or rotary as well. If all you are running is one motor, the VFD is in many ways the best solution of all.

Don't rush into this! Do a bit more research to find the solution that is best (and most economical) for you.

Good luck!
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  #8  
Old 12-16-2015, 08:58:09 PM
Ed ke6bnl Ed ke6bnl is offline
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Default Re: Phase a Matic questions

I gave my boy a 7.5 Hp 3 phase motor I had laying around we bought a 5-7 hp phase converter for that motor and we start that motor and run 3 wires off the 7.5 hp motor to his 3phase 3 hp lathe and his 1hp mill. run one or both no problem His converter was under a $100 on ebay. Phase o matic is just down the road from me and they are very helpful and have a great website, but seem a bit pricey.

---------- Post added at 04:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:53 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed ke6bnl View Post
I gave my boy a 7.5 Hp 3 phase motor I had laying around we bought a 5-7 hp phase converter for that motor and we start that motor and run 3 wires off the 7.5 hp motor to his 3phase 3 hp lathe and his 1hp mill. run one or both no problem His converter was under a $100 on ebay. Phase o matic is just down the road from me and they are very helpful and have a great website, but seem a bit pricey.
the one I am using I made from some start capacitors and start relay we use when I was working in air conditioning and has been pumping out 3 phase for some 15 years now. a small 3 hp motor.
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Old 12-16-2015, 11:29:34 PM
uglyblue66 uglyblue66 is offline
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Default Re: Phase a Matic questions

This K R wilson press was built in 1943 as a 70 ton unit. switched over to 50 ton electric in 1965.

Well the way the pump mounts to this motor,It would be a challenge to re motor this thing. It has a cast piece that bolts to the electric motor,clamps around the pump and a lov-joy coupler between.
I have saw the rotary rigs in use and they work for sure. I am just looking to finally get this unit usable as it has been a shop pet for 2 years now.
I will keep looking and learning. I just want the cheap manual thing gone and this working.
I use a 12 ton press.so if this will give me double that, that is plenty.
toughest job I have done with a press so far is to reverse the eyes on a T model front spring.
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  #10  
Old 12-17-2015, 06:06:38 PM
IronworkerFXR IronworkerFXR is offline
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Default Re: Phase a Matic questions

rotary phase is the way to go, under load a phase a matic will loose the fake leg and drop out , and the unit will burn out, they do not like being loaded down. I use a 7hp electric motor, with a phase box , run several lathes and milling machines and drill press.

get that press running !!!
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  #11  
Old 12-17-2015, 06:17:43 PM
uglyblue66 uglyblue66 is offline
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Default Re: Phase a Matic questions

I may have access to some 220 motors but what is a "phase box"?
Would this Phase box run a 3 phase welder if I got 1?
How would I know how big a 220 motor to get for this project? the 1's I can get are from air compressors and are not as big around as the 1 on this press.
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  #12  
Old 12-18-2015, 08:47:32 AM
steve mallette steve mallette is offline
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Default Re: Phase a Matic questions

I have got a Wilson &% ton just like yours. You can search on line and find a complete manual with anipl for it... FWIW
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Old 12-20-2015, 11:05:18 PM
uglyblue66 uglyblue66 is offline
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Default Re: Phase a Matic questions

Well it is good that I ask before spending money on the wrong thing. now to find a idler motor that is bigger than 5 hp! sheesh.
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Old 12-22-2015, 11:42:19 PM
prybar prybar is offline
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Default Re: Phase a Matic questions

I thought I would throw my two cents in.
Depending on what your goals are means everything. Do it right once and get on to better things. Bigger is better. The phase converter you see is the same size that I started out with in my garage in 1991. 15 hp without the stabilizer. all I had was a new lathe, cut-off saw and drill press. the cut-off was 110v.
The next picture illustrates everything that runs off of the same converter that was in the garage but added a stabilizer because of the cnc (you want consistent current in all three legs for computer sensitive 3 phase). I can start all at once or one at a time. As long as its combined hp is not three times the rated hp of the rotary phasa-matic.
They make a lot smaller ones. The time it takes to build one, is that much time you could have been profiting.
I hope this helps.
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Old 12-23-2015, 09:27:39 AM
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Default Re: Phase a Matic questions

Thanks for the input sir. Education is a good thing.
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Old 12-23-2015, 03:30:21 PM
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Default Re: Phase a Matic questions

Well the chances of me getting other 3 phase equipment is nill as I don't do much "machining " or anything. A 3 phase welder is about the only other thing I would ever use.
I have considered taking this motor off and carrying it to a local rewind shop and find out exactly what I have and ask about the control switch and such and just go with a 220 single phase motor if possible.It is going to cost me out the #(#* either way really as from what I read on 1 ebay listing the motor on the rotary has to be 1.5 times larger than the motor being operated. So I would need a 8 hp motor. Much bigger motors than i have easy access to .I have access to a couple 2 to 3 hp motors.
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Old 12-23-2015, 03:35:23 PM
prybar prybar is offline
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Default Re: Phase a Matic questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by akuna View Post
Only problem with buying. Most of us do not live in a place with a pile of used converters waiting to be taken home for scrap price. A guy can buy a lot of tooling for the cost of a new 15 horse power rotary converter. Possibly even a nice used machine.
I personally would not take a lot of stock in that comment. I have a extra 15 hp converter that_I don't use. So they are around.
In the shop picture in the far left is a series two Bridgeport cnc. I bought it in 1998 for one job. I ran it for 40 hours. Not run a job since, maybe a 4 hour run for myself. I made over 100,000.00 on that one job. I paid 12,000 for the mill.
Who is most of us?
I guess I shouldn't have bought that mill, I could have bought a lot of tooling for 12,000 bucks

Not to mention in my previous response, I said they make smaller ones, its all about goals.

Not the goal of trying make someone look like a idiot.

Last edited by prybar; 12-23-2015 at 04:03:24 PM. Reason: add
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Old 12-23-2015, 03:56:03 PM
dalmatiangirl61 dalmatiangirl61 is offline
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Default Re: Phase a Matic questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by akuna View Post
Only problem with buying. Most of us do not live in a place with a pile of used converters waiting to be taken home for scrap price. A guy can buy a lot of tooling for the cost of a new 15 horse power rotary converter. Possibly even a nice used machine.
I found 2 - 20Hp rotary converters on ebay sitting in CA, seller had no idea if they worked or why they were pulled and sold them cheap. I took both, paid $200 in shipping, and sold 1 for what I had into both. The second unit is still in my shop running today, all I've had to do to it was replace the capacitors. So if you are patient and watch diligently, they are out there.

OP, you keep mentioning the need to run a 3 phase welder, have you looked at dkamp's posts on rewiring 3 ph welders to run on single phase? If those are your only needs I'd figure out how to swap motors on press and either rewire welder or get a single phase machine.
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Old 12-23-2015, 06:40:38 PM
dalmatiangirl61 dalmatiangirl61 is offline
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Default Re: Phase a Matic questions

Not trying to argue, my point was that if it is a hobby shop, ie you don't have a 100K job waiting, there are deals out there from time to time, it just takes perseverance and patience to find one priced right. I searched daily for probably 6 months, yes most ads I saw were asking full price or higher. Yes I could have ended up with 2 $400 boat anchors, but thanks to some help on this forum I ended up with about $60 in caps to fix the one I kept
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Old 12-23-2015, 08:03:17 PM
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Default Re: Phase a Matic questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by prybar View Post
Who is most of us?
I guess I shouldn't have bought that mill, I could have bought a lot of tooling for 12,000 bucks
"Most of us" is those of us who don't live in the industrial heartland, lately known as the Rust Belt...machine tools aren't just laying around in piles in a lot of the country, it took me years to find a decent Bridgeport for decent money here...

I also fail to see the analogy between buying a mill you needed & making a buttload of money with it & buying a new converter that would be used occasionally...the man's right, his money could be better spent on tooling or whatever.

---------- Post added at 05:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:57 PM ----------

My son made a converter out of a junkyard motor & a few bucks worth of capacitors...worked fine.
I can't imagine a press needing 5HP-most I've seen had only about a 1 or 2 horse motor, some of those old motors are huge for the HP they make...
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