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Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion Meet collectors of hit and miss engines, ask questions about collecting, restoring and showing antique flywheel engines.

Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion

First Engine


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  #1  
Old 05-23-2006, 02:29:39 PM
zcrash
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Default First Engine

Hello guys, My dad gave me a briggs and stratton 60102 motor when i was 10. At the time i was more intrested in various other things, but now that I am 16 i wanted to see what its like to take apart and reassemble a real motor. Once i remembered that I had this one that my dad gave me, I went outside and gave it a few pulls and it didn't start. I went down to sears and bought a new plug...Still nothing. I had my dad come check it out, and he said it was the Magneto. I would like to try and fix this if it will not be too costly. Can anyone give me instructions on where to get one, and how to fix the problem. I have the whole motor apart now. I just put the piston and cam back in and timed it. I dont think i need that off to install a magneto, or do I? I have the flywheel off and i am to the part where the wire from the magneto goes to a battery like object. Any help is appreciated

-Z
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  #2  
Old 05-23-2006, 04:36:07 PM
Kevin O. Pulver Kevin O. Pulver is offline
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Default Re: First Engine

Z
I am not exactly sure what briggs you are working on.
Is it the new style where magnets and fan blades are built into the flywheel and the "battery" thing you talk about is the coil that mounts over the flywheel? That coil should almost touch the flywheel. I use a matchbook paper as a guage to set the gap between the two. The flywheel key sets the timing of the magneto automatically. The only way to mess it up is if the key is half sheared off. I know some other Briggs had separate, removable, "real" magnetos. You should be able to find a book at the library easy enough or somewhere on line to get more specific directions. I'm sure one of the guys here could help if you can get a little more information. Maybe the number you gave will be enough for them. Stick around, and we'll all learn a lot before this is over. Kevin
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  #3  
Old 05-23-2006, 05:57:09 PM
zcrash
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Default Re: First Engine

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This is a picture of the magneto and the battery like thing i spoke of.
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This is the Motor, without the flywheel and cover.

We bought a new plug and we got no spark.
Where could i find a new magneto?

Thanks
-Z
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  #4  
Old 05-23-2006, 07:03:42 PM
WheelSpinner WheelSpinner is offline
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Default Re: First Engine

Z man,

The "battery thing" is the capacitor / point contact. The magneto might not be bad. To test it, you will need an ohm meter. The magneto needs to have several things happening at the right time to make a spark. Basically as the magnet on the flywheel passes the pole of the coil, the points must open at the correct time. The point opening is determined by a cam on the crankshaft. If the point gap is incorrect, then they will not open when the magnet is passing the coil. The meter will allow you to test whether the coil is bad and also if the points are functioning properly. Set the gap from the flywheel to the ciol with a business card. Then put the cam on the high side (points open) and set the point gap to 0.015 inches by moving the capacitor in proximity to the movable point contact. Coils really dont go bad, it is usually the points or the capacitor.

Hope this helps you.

Joe
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Old 05-23-2006, 07:06:14 PM
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Gene O. Carpenter Gene O. Carpenter is offline
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Default Re: First Engine

"Z",
Move those tools aside.lay a piece of light colored cloth or paper on that work area and place every part that you have, for that engine, on and snap a photo,post it so "we" can see if you have everything!

Gene
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  #6  
Old 05-23-2006, 07:56:27 PM
zcrash
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Default Re: First Engine

there is a a problem, the wire going from the capacitor to the coil got broken, but its inside the coil, i tried soldering, but it wouldnt stick, its too short to make a splice, can i take the coil apart to get enough wire out to make a splice?
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Old 05-23-2006, 08:29:51 PM
zcrash
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Default Re: First Engine

alright, i took a picture of what i have
notice that the capacitor wire is disconnected from the coil, i need to get this reconnected, is there any way i can open the coil up to reconnect this wire.







this is a close up of the motor, where the capacitor goes...i have it off for the picture.

Thanks
Z
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Old 05-23-2006, 08:54:30 PM
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Default Re: First Engine

hello,
when i was 8 years old i wanted an erector set.my dad threw me a maytag and said there is your erector set. god love him,yes you can pull a little of the wire out of the coil,not much.good luck,and have fun.
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Old 05-23-2006, 08:58:41 PM
zcrash
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Default Re: First Engine

haha, yes im so glad that i have this to work on , cuz it can lead to bigger and better things!
How should i go about getting the wire out of the coil, do i cut part of rubber and pull some out and then tape it back up? or just pull?
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Old 05-23-2006, 09:04:06 PM
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Default Re: First Engine

yes cut a little and get enough to solder to.then bandage it up.
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Old 05-23-2006, 09:09:36 PM
WheelSpinner WheelSpinner is offline
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Default Re: First Engine

Zman, I am having a ball reliving my childhood through your project. Should I say been there done that? I have this exact engine. Done just the kind of things you are doing. Keep us informed as to your success. when you get it going, you will never forget it! dont give up, I know you will get it going!

Joe
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Old 05-23-2006, 09:45:19 PM
zcrash
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Default Re: First Engine

thanks so much joe! its appreciated!!!!!
I am having some troubles with the coil right now, i think i am going to have to replace it, does anyone know where i can purchace or find one of these?
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Old 05-23-2006, 10:14:35 PM
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Gene O. Carpenter Gene O. Carpenter is offline
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Default Re: First Engine

"Z",
If my memory is right that coil is encased in plastic and I don't think that you'll have much luck in getting enough out to marke this repair! Never the less that will be the weakest link in your undertaking..
I looked on eBay and there are magnetos or armature coils there,but getting the right one is doubtful...There is a guy on this forum,Briggs nut" that should be able to hook you up with that part.
If you live near a lawn mower repair shop have your Dad drive you there,take your tools ,tell the man that you want a used mag off an old lawn mower and you'll take it off your self..
He'll probably show you a motor and tell you to help yourslf! I know that I would if a youngster came into my shop ready to remove the part himself,
Make sure you put that dust cover back over the points and condenser,a dab of RTV sealer or Permatex where the wire passes thru that cover....Good mechanekin to ya!!
Gene
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Old 05-23-2006, 10:31:04 PM
zcrash
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Default Re: First Engine

Thank you a bunch! Unfortunately i dont get my lisence till august, BUT i am in luck, there is a place called grunders down the street from me and they have ALLL kinds of tractors and lawn mowers. I just dont know if he would let me take apart a motor, what do u suggest that i ask him?
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Old 05-23-2006, 10:52:15 PM
Kevin O. Pulver Kevin O. Pulver is offline
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Default Re: First Engine

Z
Go in at a time when you suspect they may not be as busy as other times.
Maybe first thing in the morning or ?break time or ??
Anyway, say something like this:
Hi, my name is Ziggy, (or Zorro or whatever your name is) I live right down the street.
I'm sorry to bother you, I don't know a lot about engines, but I'm trying to learn about them by working on one my dad gave me. The wire is broke on this thing here, (hand it to him) and I wonder if you had a used one I could BUY.

In doing this, you first of all recognize that he is busy and his time is valuable.
Secondly, you make it easy and painless for him to see what you need, (which wastes less of his valuable time and avoids frustration)
Thirdly, you make it understood that it's a hobby project and you need cheap parts, but aren't asking for something for nothing.

He will appreciate those three things very much, and will very likely give you the part you need. Fourthly you will appeal to his knowledge by admitting your lack thereof, and appeal to his fatherly instincts by letting him know your dad gave it to you and you need help. It might be good to have the tin fan shroud or whatever has the serial number on it to help him identify also.
Please let us know how it goes. P.S. There is also an electronic ignition conversion that does away with the points on your engine. I'm not suggesting it's what you should do, just making you aware of your options.Kevin
Thank him profusely
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Old 05-23-2006, 10:59:10 PM
zcrash
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Default Re: First Engine

wow! Thank you! I will write up a speach tonight


Can u give me a link to this electronic ignition system?
If you could that would be great.
Now, WHEN i get this engine running, is it possible for me to put it on a bike, will it move it? I have heard of people doing this and using a centrifigual clutch and the gears that are already on the bike....is this motor powerful enough to do that? Thank you for your feedback


-Z
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Old 05-23-2006, 11:04:44 PM
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Default Re: First Engine

"Z", take the mod & ser number, the old parts and your tool box,it won't hurt to have the means to remove the part if he say's that you can! He might be tickeled pink to help a young guy learn but then again with todays "SUE EM attitude" he might not want that liability.
Even if he won't permit you to do the work your self he shouldn't want more than $5.
School's almost out,ask him if he needs a helper to help and learn.. That's how I learned a lot at a Farm Impliment Sales and Repair in Norfolk Va,name of the place was Land & Coats on Va Beach Blvd. Helped the grease monkey in the back.. An older man.retited Navy Chief Machinest Mate. Learned valve lapping,grinding valve stem end for clearence,,honed cylinders,sharpened reel mowers.His hobby was Hit n Miss engines and he had 25-30 that we ran every Sat afternoon..Oh to go back to those days when I was your age!
Gene
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Old 05-24-2006, 01:04:01 AM
George Andreasen George Andreasen is offline
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Default Re: First Engine

I just had to jump in on this one. I rebuilt several Briggs engines for practice before I started on my flywheel stuff and here's what I can tell you.
1. You'll notice the little plastic plunger that drops into a slot on the crank and opens the points. Guess what? They open TWICE for every revolution, not just once like most four strokes. It really harms nothing and makes the ignition system simple.
2. Most of the spark plug lead out wires from the coil aren't soldered, just looped through and twisted. That's factory practice and works just fine. If you can't cut through the coil plastic to get more wire, just get another from a junker as already suggested. MAKE SURE IT MATCHES YOURS EXACTLY.
3. If you can reattatch the wire, put the coil back on the engine and set the clearance from the flywheel at about .010 (ten thousanths) or so. A matchbook cover is a little thick but will work. Try the plastic from a soda bottle. Just cut a strip and lay it on the flywheel, lower the coil, tighten the screws and slip the plastic out. Done!
4. Replace the points and condensor and set as per the directions. A new set is only about 5-6 bucks. If you want to put an electronic ignition on they are available from a number of sources and work wonders on old Briggs, outboards, chainsaws, etc. I got several from Ebay. Easy to install and you'll have no points or condensor to worry about. Just make sure your flywheel has only ONE magnet embedded in its surface. Some Briggs engines had two and the electronic ignitions will not work with these.
5. There are several good books on small engines so check out your local library. This is how we did things before the internet and it still works.
6. Ask all the questions you can........lots of folks here to help!
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Old 05-24-2006, 01:09:32 AM
George Andreasen George Andreasen is offline
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Default Re: First Engine

Almost forgot........yes, it'll power a bicycle....but it will require some carefull planning and some welding. Then you have to ask yourself if the bike brakes are good enough to stop???? You also have exposed chains, sprockets, etc. that really should have guards to protect your legs. I had my right ankle lacerated by a Briggs rope start pulley on a mini bike years ago. so PLAN CAREFULLY!
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Old 05-24-2006, 01:09:51 AM
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Default Re: First Engine

Z,
Hi. You asked about this engine's ability to propel a bike. If I remember right, a 60102 is about 2-1/2 hp. Again, if I remember from my early engine days - a 3-2/1 hp mini bike would do about 22 mph, and a 5 hp would hit nearly 30. With a low enough gear to be able to take off from a standing stop, the best you can hope for with your engine will probably be less than 20 mph.
This assumes a single speed set up.
If you are up to a little engineering, there are ways to increase both the off the line performance and the top end as well, but it involves 'changing gears' - whether by a variable ratio pulley set up or an actual gear box (transmission). The picture below shows a conversion I did with a standard 20" 3 speed bike wheel. I adapted a front (pedal crank) sprocket to the 3 speed hub. To drive this wheel, you would need an intermediate reduction. This is called a jack shaft. A belt (or chain) runs from the engine (with centrifugal clutch) which has a small pulley / sprocket to a larger one on a shaft running in bearings midway from the engine to the wheel. Then on the other end of this shaft is a small sprocket that drives a chain to the large sprocket on the wheel. The first reduction should be about 2:1 - cutting the engine RPM in half. the second reduction should be at least 3:1. If you take an average engine speed of 3000 rpm (remember, it will be under a load...) the first reduction brings it down to 1500, then the second reduction brings that down to 500. Using a 3 speed bike hub lets you take that both higher & lower. Don't recall exactly off hand, but I think the ratios are about 1.5:1, 1:1 & .75:1.
This is probably a lot more confusing than it needs to be, so I'll let it go right here and hope I haven't said anything too stupid......
Good luck,
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