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Vintage Diesel and Oil Engines Fairbanks Morse, Lister, Petter, Witte and other pump injected Diesel oil engines.

Vintage Diesel and Oil Engines

Witte Fuel Injection Pump


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  #1  
Old 06-14-2007, 07:21:47 PM
Jud Jud is offline
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Default Witte Fuel Injection Pump

Hello
I recently saw a post from a Witte diesel engine owner looking for an American Bosch injection pump APF 1A 80N 2450A. I noticed that several military spare parts outfits have a pump for sale identified as an American Bosch APF 1A 80N 2400. For example, check out:
http://www.wbaviation.com/item1/page.cfm/3513
Just what the difference between these pumps may be probably can only be resolved by the expertise of other Smokstak readers or the Bosch catalog.
Regards, Jud
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  #2  
Old 06-15-2007, 02:51:11 PM
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ListerDiesel ListerDiesel is offline
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Default Re: Witte Fuel Injection Pump

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jud View Post
Hello
I recently saw a post from a Witte diesel engine owner looking for an American Bosch injection pump APF 1A 80N 2450A. I noticed that several military spare parts outfits have a pump for sale identified as an American Bosch APF 1A 80N 2400.
In the UK we have the CAV-Bosch and later CAV series which are BPF1A.....

A is American, B is British
P is Injection Pump
F is Flange Mounted, E is enclosed camshaft
1 is the number of pumping elements
A is the pump body size (goes A, B, Z, C, CC, X, D, E )

80 is the element diameter (70 = 7mm, 80 = 8mm etc)
N = design change letter

CAV pumps have two digits here that define the pump body alignment (00, 03, 04, 05)

XXXX the last four digits specify the element helix, and other specifics for a particular engine.

The last four digits really tell the story if you have the relevant Bosch or CAV design lists to work it out.

Peter
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Old 06-15-2007, 04:07:28 PM
Jud Jud is offline
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Default Re: Witte Fuel Injection Pump

hello all
thanks peter for getting the basic nomenclature set out and now, i suppose that the relevant question here is this: where can one find the "relevant" design lists to unravel the meaning of the last four digits of the part number--- i have searched high and low -- but nothing seems to turn up on the internet...are these "lists" still available, and if so, where can they be accessed??? in light of the number of well-versed folks who visit this bb, someone must have a clue as to where to start.
jud
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Old 06-15-2007, 04:16:25 PM
Jud Jud is offline
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Default Re: Witte Fuel Injection Pump

hell again
it only just occurred to me when reading peter's remarks over again, that i had a lingering question--is there interchangeability between the british and american pumps??? if so, i would invite further comment from out british friends regarding the extent...and on a related topic, i note with special interest the number of british diesel injector and injection pump specialists who advertise on the web that they have special expertise in vintage repair and restoration
jud
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  #5  
Old 06-16-2007, 12:31:39 AM
ronm ronm is offline
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Default Re: Witte Fuel Injection Pump

Jud, just call an American Bosch pump service shop. they will have the specs for both pumps & can tell you the difference. I think the co. is now called AMBAC, don't know if they have merged w/another co. or just changed the name. For what it's worth, my spare pump I got with my Witte CD is a APF1A-80N-2450A-same as you mentioned. The-2400 may be an earlier or later version, or may be for a BD or other Witte engine. The AM. Bosch dealer will know...
Ron in CO...
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  #6  
Old 06-16-2007, 08:12:23 AM
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Default Re: Witte Fuel Injection Pump

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jud View Post
hell again
it only just occurred to me when reading peter's remarks over again, that i had a lingering question--is there interchangeability between the british and american pumps??? if so, i would invite further comment from out british friends regarding the extent...and on a related topic, i note with special interest the number of british diesel injector and injection pump specialists who advertise on the web that they have special expertise in vintage repair and restoration
jud
Given an identical spec number, then the pumps would be the same.

ABF1A 80N 2540
would be the same as:
BPF1A 80N 2540

Whether Bosch and CAV kept a watch on conflicting numbering I don't know.

Regarding the information to track device details, there was a huge volume of CAV data available on Microfiche for CAV dealers, and quite honestly there was as much again on paper.

We have kept a lot of the more useful data such as element identification tables and some 1950's application books, but you'd have a house full if you tried to collect the lot.

Since CAV/Lucas/Simms got broken up, there is no central source for the information any more. Most of what was CAV and Lucas went into Delphi, while the rest is in France.

I have a very good friend who runs an 'old-fashioned' injection shop, and I can access his knowledge and records when needed.

We have put a lot of the CAV single element pump information on our website, and we have an American Bosch injection manual from the same era that we will scan also. Not much on American Bosch applications though, we just don't seem to see them come up on the internet.

Peter
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  #7  
Old 06-16-2007, 08:50:29 AM
Jud Jud is offline
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Default Re: Witte Fuel Injection Pump

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronm View Post
Jud, just call an American Bosch pump service shop. they will have the specs for both pumps & can tell you the difference. I think the co. is now called AMBAC, don't know if they have merged w/another co. or just changed the name. For what it's worth, my spare pump I got with my Witte CD is a APF1A-80N-2450A-same as you mentioned. The-2400 may be an earlier or later version, or may be for a BD or other Witte engine. The AM. Bosch dealer will know...
Ron in CO...
thanks ron--when i called one shop, they asked what the pump was on and i told them it was from a witte ad engine built about 1950, all the guy said was "good luck" and he added that for 2 or 3 grand they maybe could fix-up the engine as a whole--- but, you are righ, i'll call around --- the problem here in virginia is that outside of the industrial area around norfolk (where the big u.s. navy shipyard is located) there just isn't anything like an industrial base in this state---in fact until after ww2 there wasn't much industry at all..specialized knowledge was little and far between..to this day many, many school systems do not have classes in automotive technology, the industriial arts, etc....but, i'll check again, this time i'll look for a diesel house in the norfolk area
regards
jud
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Old 06-16-2007, 09:00:11 AM
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Default Re: Witte Fuel Injection Pump

Quote:
Originally Posted by ListerDiesel View Post
Given an identical spec number, then the pumps would be the same.

ABF1A 80N 2540
would be the same as:
BPF1A 80N 2540

Whether Bosch and CAV kept a watch on conflicting numbering I don't know.

Regarding the information to track device details, there was a huge volume of CAV data available on Microfiche for CAV dealers, and quite honestly there was as much again on paper.

We have kept a lot of the more useful data such as element identification tables and some 1950's application books, but you'd have a house full if you tried to collect the lot.

Since CAV/Lucas/Simms got broken up, there is no central source for the information any more. Most of what was CAV and Lucas went into Delphi, while the rest is in France.

I have a very good friend who runs an 'old-fashioned' injection shop, and I can access his knowledge and records when needed.

We have put a lot of the CAV single element pump information on our website, and we have an American Bosch injection manual from the same era that we will scan also. Not much on American Bosch applications though, we just don't seem to see them come up on the internet.

Peter
peter,

thanks for the information...please see my response to ron's suggestions about contacting an americam bosch shop...as i mentioned in an earlier post, i was surprised to see so many british diesel shops on the web advertising their expertise in vintage repairs and restorations...we have may have a problem with that issue here in the usa, although i did find one outfit that has been a full-service diesel shop for the last 50+ yeas and says it can fix anything---and on its site shows a ratty-looking injection pump transformed into new-appearing

as for the manuals, that's great news---just getting some access to the manuals themselves is a big step forward...good job!!

regards
jud
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Old 06-17-2007, 10:14:58 AM
ronm ronm is offline
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Default Re: Witte Fuel Injection Pump

Hey Jud, another possibility is Arrow Specialties Co. in Tulsa OK. They still service Witte engines for oil field applications. They can probably tell you the difference between those pumps. I shudder to think what their price would be, they wanted $240 for a rod bearing & $1300 for a piston for my CD -this was 10 yrs. ago...
Sorry, I don't have a phone # any more, I think they are on the Net now.
Ron in CO...
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Old 06-17-2007, 10:52:11 AM
Jim Tremble Jim Tremble is offline
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Default Re: Witte Fuel Injection Pump

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jud View Post
Hello
I recently saw a post from a Witte diesel engine owner looking for an American Bosch injection pump APF 1A 80N 2450A.
Regards, Jud
Jud

Try this website. They have a 800 #. Located in Tenn. They are a Bosch dealer and may be able to help.

http://www.dieselcare.net/?OVRAW=ame...ID=18943380521

Jim
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Old 06-23-2007, 03:14:45 PM
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ListerDiesel ListerDiesel is offline
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Default Re: Witte Fuel Injection Pump

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jud View Post
peter,

thanks for the information...please see my response to ron's suggestions about contacting an americam bosch shop...as i mentioned in an earlier post, i was surprised to see so many british diesel shops on the web advertising their expertise in vintage repairs and restorations...we have may have a problem with that issue here in the usa, although i did find one outfit that has been a full-service diesel shop for the last 50+ yeas and says it can fix anything---and on its site shows a ratty-looking injection pump transformed into new-appearing

as for the manuals, that's great news---just getting some access to the manuals themselves is a big step forward...good job!!

regards
jud

We have always had more diesel kit in the UK and Europe than in the USA, so there are many more small service shops around.

CAV, Bryce and Simms all supplied fuel pumps and injectors, and many makers such as Gardner, AEC, Ruston & Hornsby and more made their own injection parts.

So into preservation, we have many more people with diesel engines and vehicles/tractors with diesel power.

As far as the basic BPF1A and BPF1B pumps are concerned, Bosch/CAV/American Bosch should be very similar in design, as they all started out from Bosch in the first place.

I'll get the American Bosch manual scanned ASAP.

Peter
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  #12  
Old 06-25-2007, 08:24:21 AM
Jud Jud is offline
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Default Re: Witte Fuel Injection Pump

Peter---thanks a million. Many will benefit.

I just acquired an Americam Bosch service manual for the "APE" pump which I'll scan and post later on this week.

I am still working on a list of diesel houses here in the mid-Atlantic area which will service vintage pumps and injectors. Some I have contacted want nothing to do with anything older than a decade or two...parts seems to be the isssue as well as experience with "older" equipment.

The more-or-less accepted term for the degeneration in the mechanical arts in the USA is "deindustrialization." Many articles are now making their way into specialized economic, industrial, engineering and academic journals.

A friend's dad, who worked for a White truck dealer, was treated like royalty because he had been a diesel engine mechanic since the early 1950s. He retired about 10 years ago. But for decades he was one of the cornerstones of the shop.

Jud
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Old 06-30-2007, 03:31:26 AM
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Default Re: Witte Fuel Injection Pump

The APE pump is the 'enclosed camshaft' type, obviously more than one element and used in its BPE (English variant) on Lister CE, FR, JP and other engines.

There's a bit more on the BPF series pumps at:

http://www.oldengine.org/members/die...n/CAVpics5.htm

Peter
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Old 07-01-2007, 09:40:38 AM
Jud Jud is offline
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Default Re: Witte Fuel Injection Pump

I have just scanned the Bosch "APE" manual. I'll be sending in these, but haven't yet figured out how to mane then bigger than the thumb-sized attachment. Anyway, these pumps were for 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 10 and 12 cylinder engines.
Jud
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Old 07-04-2007, 03:31:36 PM
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Default Re: Witte Fuel Injection Pump

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jud View Post
I have just scanned the Bosch "APE" manual. I'll be sending in these, but haven't yet figured out how to mane then bigger than the thumb-sized attachment. Anyway, these pumps were for 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 10 and 12 cylinder engines.
Jud
I replied to your message, there is an image size limit on Smokstak, quite reasonably, so if you want to send them over, I'll put them on our own injection section, or, why not start your own website????

Peter
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Old 05-26-2015, 07:35:02 PM
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Default Re: Witte Fuel Injection Pump

I am looking for 2 plungers for a witte cd engine pump is a American bosch apf/1a/80n/2450 the plunger is bc76197-5a if you know of any please contact jeff advancedieselservice@gci.net or 907 2781999
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Old 05-28-2015, 11:56:15 PM
DirtbikePilot DirtbikePilot is offline
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Default Re: Witte Fuel Injection Pump

The plungers are precision lapped to the barrel and are not typically interchangeable between pumps.

I have 2 witte diesels and if I ever need to replace the pump on either, I'll most likely end up using a different, more common style of pump. Witte or some supplier of parts at one time made an adapter plate to allow use of a more common pump body. Then you would just need to find a pump with similar stroke and volume.
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Old 02-22-2017, 12:32:17 PM
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Default Re: Witte Fuel Injection Pump

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jud View Post
Hello
I recently saw a post from a Witte diesel engine owner looking for an American Bosch injection pump APF 1A 80N 2450A. I noticed that several military spare parts outfits have a pump for sale identified as an American Bosch APF 1A 80N 2400. For example, check out:
http://www.wbaviation.com/item1/page.cfm/3513
Just what the difference between these pumps may be probably can only be resolved by the expertise of other Smokstak readers or the Bosch catalog.
Regards, Jud
I know this is an old thread, but a good one.

This manual, page 8 explains the differences in parts, at least different part numbers. The surplus injector was for a small Nordberg 4F*
http://www.ambacdiesel.com/product_i.../APF-1A(1).pdf
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Old 02-22-2017, 02:09:42 PM
Grigg Grigg is offline
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Default Re: Witte Fuel Injection Pump

Here are clips from that Bosch parts manual showing the Witte info. For other engines with APF 1A injection pumps, including the Nordberg, open the PDF file link in the previous post.
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Old 02-22-2017, 02:28:48 PM
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Default Re: Witte Fuel Injection Pump

Fuel injection pump details and part numbers for the Witte model KD with APF-1b pump can be found here.
http://www.ambacdiesel.com/product_i.../APF-1B(1).pdf
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