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Fuels and Alternative Fuels Materials or substances that can be used as a fuel, waste oils, vegetable oils or animal fats, which can be used alone, or blended with fossil fuels.

Fuels and Alternative Fuels

Ethanol Gas - Florida Update


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  #1  
Old 06-15-2013, 11:56:33 AM
Bill Sherlock Bill Sherlock is offline
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Default Ethanol Gas - Florida Update

Some news updates involving legal cases with the fuels you use every day.

The moment Florida drivers have waited a decade for came to pass on June 1st. Florida Governor Rick Scott finally signed a bill making it state law that gas stations do not have to sell ethanol-blended gasoline if they don't want to. That could well mean it's going to be a lot easier to find "regular gas" in Florida. Will other states follow suit?

Hmmmmm, seems like there's a lot more people out there suffering the consequences of ethanol in their gas, than just me. The above was copied from an email I received from a reliable source.

Bill
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Old 06-15-2013, 10:10:20 PM
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Default Re: Ethanol Gas - Florida Update

People should have a choice in what fuel to use in their own vehicles. We can choose between E0 and E10 at most gas stations in Iowa. I choose E10 for my vehicles and E0 for tractors and lawmowers, since the fuel sits around a lot. If E15 or E20 was readily available, I would use it in my cars.
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Old 06-15-2013, 11:00:59 PM
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Default Re: Ethanol Gas - Florida Update

I use E-100, Yes, pure ethanol in the Oilpull tractor and it sits for 355 days between runnings. It runs fine and we thresh with it.
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Old 06-15-2013, 11:41:34 PM
Bill Sherlock Bill Sherlock is offline
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Default Re: Ethanol Gas - Florida Update

I've never seen an E85 gas pump in this part of the country much less E100. What is the price of E100 per gallon? Have you figured out how much more E100 you have to burn to do the same work as non ethanol gas?

Bill
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Old 07-08-2013, 09:09:34 AM
sdowney717 sdowney717 is offline
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Default Re: Ethanol Gas - Florida Update

That is good.
Since ethanol has less energy I think this means something must give. It is either lowered horsepower, worse fuel economy or both. In Florida lots of power boats so this will benefit them I think.
I have noticed fuel mileage changes in the cars when using different types of ethanol gas, more ethanol worse mileage. They do seem to run about the same. One car is a 4 cylinder saturn which you can notice the power difference being marginal in HP from the get go by its nature. another is a 350 v8 and has plenty power capacity regardless of fuel type.

---------- Post added at 09:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:05 AM ----------

We have a large 37 foot sedan cruiser boat with twin gas engines.

On that one I have noticed the power drop from pure gas to ethanol gas. It just is not the same. the engines are 1970 IH 392 Palmer marinized engines. I have had to upgrade the fuel system for ethanol reasons. Replace all fuel lines, fuel pumps, fuel regulators, carbs, fuel filter designs with those more compatible with ethanol.

Basically the old stuff either rubber rots or they corrode with E10.
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Old 07-08-2013, 07:37:39 PM
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OTTO-Sawyer OTTO-Sawyer is offline
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Default Re: Ethanol Gas - Florida Update

I was hoping Ed would have answered by now with some kind of a 'cost estimate' on his E100, which I assumed he was making himself (since I haven't seen it at the pump either), which if that's the case it wouldn't really matter how much he burned compared with Non-Ethanol.

I haven't priced the E85 recently to compare it with regular or E10, but the couple times I used partial tanks of it mixed in I never saw any noticeable drop in power or mileage from it. If I were to try a full tank even though my car isn't designed as a 'flex-fuel' vehicle I would expect the mpg to drop some, but the cost per gallon is also much lower, so the miles per dollar would be about the same or a little better. In a car that Is designed for it, the lower BTU is compensated for by the higher octane and the computer should adjust the timing to keep the power level the same. If it were possible to vary the compression ratio in a flex fuel car to really take advantage of the higher octane, there would be a performance AND mileage Increase while also being cheaper per gallon.

Like it or not, there is power to be made with it due to the higher octane. Drag racers are using, tractor pullers are using it, Ed is using it in his OilPull, and millions & millions of cars on the road are using it at one mixture or another.


But I also still agree that it should be the Buyers Choice, rather than be forced to use it.
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Old 07-08-2013, 10:11:54 PM
Bill Sherlock Bill Sherlock is offline
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Default Re: Ethanol Gas - Florida Update

Our 2011 Malibu which we bought last winter, in spite of it being a Flex Fuel vehicle, averages about 13 MPG less in city driving than our 2004 Malibu using regular ethanol gas. At the current price of $1.244 per liter that works out to 20 cents per mile for the Flex-Fuel Malibu v/s 14 cents per mile for the non Flex 2004.

Bill
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Old 07-08-2013, 10:52:50 PM
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Default Re: Ethanol Gas - Florida Update

The general rule for alcohol vs gasoline power per volume is 8:1
8 times the alcohol volume (100%) to produce the same power as one gallon of gas.

For the Canadians info, the US govt *I mean we the people*are subsidizing the E85 I think at .50 per gallon so it shows a cheaper at the pump price and they still can't sell the crap. Eventually this subsidy will be ending and the price of this schitt will rise.

Some hot rodders are using 85 in their turboed cars with good results but with the obvious much higher consumption rate.
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Old 07-08-2013, 11:05:33 PM
Bill Sherlock Bill Sherlock is offline
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Default Re: Ethanol Gas - Florida Update

I'm not aware of any E-85 pumps in Saskatchewan. Wouldn't fill up with E-85 even though the 2011 Malibu is a Flex-Fuel vehicle. Hate to think what the mileage would drop to in that case.

I'm currently buying Shell V-Power NON ETHANOL Premium gas for my '95 Contour as it's a second vehicle and don't want a re-occurance of the costly problem I had with ethanol gas last year.

Bill
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Old 07-08-2013, 11:36:05 PM
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Default Re: Ethanol Gas - Florida Update

averages about 13 MPG less in city driving than our 2004 Malibu using regular ethanol gas
Bill, I am kinda shocked here - could I just check the numbers with you? - 13 MPG less? Not to be rude, but is that a typo? Thank You

2004 EPA mileage (US Gallon) 4 cyl 21 city, 31 hwy
6 cyl 20 city, 29 hwy

2011 EPA 4 cyl 22 city 33 hwy
6 17 26
13 MPG less would be 7 or 8 MPG in the city????

---------- Post added at 11:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:34 PM ----------

Sorry, posting somehow messed up my neat chart, but you can still figure it out.
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Old 07-08-2013, 11:59:31 PM
Bill Sherlock Bill Sherlock is offline
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Default Re: Ethanol Gas - Florida Update

Power,

No, that's not a typo. I'm talking Imperial gallons here which is 20% larger than US gallons. The 2004 Malibu averaged about 41 - 43 MPG (Imperial) including city driving. The 2011 Malibu averages about 28 MPG (Imperial) under same conditions.

That's possibly why a showroom condition vehicle was on a dealer's lot with only 9,000 miles.

Bill
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Old 07-09-2013, 12:21:44 PM
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Wink Re: Ethanol Gas - Florida Update

What's the point in comparing different vehicles using the same fuel, when your question earlier was about the cost of using E85 or E100 versus Non-Ethanol fuel.

I realize I got a little sidetracked there mentioning Drag Racers and Tractor Pullers running Alcohol and taking advantage of its higher octane rating, but.....

..... comparing your 2004 Malibu to your 2011 Malibu is like me comparing my 94 Chevy truck at 10mpg to my 2004 Ford Focus at 24-29mpg. They are Two Totally Different Vehicles with different engines, different body weights, different gearing, different computer settings, etc., etc., etc...

Unless you actually try using the two different fuels in the same vehicle, your numbers are meaningless.

And comparing your numbers with what Power posted there, it looks like your 2011 is getting the mileage it was rated at, while you somehow managed to get 62% BETTER Than the EPA rating with your 2004 meaning it was either Under-Rated, or you got damn lucky and got one built with the perfect combination of parts to get that much of an increase in mileage with it.

Again though..... that is the difference between the two Different vehicles and has Nothing to do with the fuel used in them.
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Old 07-09-2013, 06:20:04 PM
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Default Re: Ethanol Gas - Florida Update

I'm talking Imperial gallons here which is 20% larger than US gallons.

Yes, Bill, I realized that - why I put (US Gallon) in my response - I do not know how to get official MPG for Imperial Gal. vehicles. That amount of difference with 2 similar vehicles is astounding.
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Old 07-09-2013, 06:57:08 PM
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Default Re: Ethanol Gas - Florida Update

Bill How are you figuring your mpg? Going by the computer read out or the old fashion way going by gallons and miles? Something is not right for that big of a difference. Just because you have a flex fuel car they get the same mpg if you use regular gas. E-85 will drop mpg but increase power. If your sure your comparison's are right then try unhooking your battery for a couple of minutes to reset the computer back to default. Bob
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Old 07-09-2013, 09:19:06 PM
Bill Sherlock Bill Sherlock is offline
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Default Re: Ethanol Gas - Florida Update

I figure mileage by dividing miles with gallons purchased averaged over numerous tanks of gas. In Canada I convert liters to Imperial gallons as that's what we used here before Trudeau. I'll try the suggestion about disconnecting the battery to see if city driving mileage improves.

Power, add 25% to your EPA figures to get comparable figures for Imperial gallons. US gallon equals 128 oz. Imperial gallons is 160 oz. (128 oz. X 25% = 32 oz + 128 = 160 oz)

Bill
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Old 07-11-2013, 12:47:53 PM
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Default Re: Ethanol Gas - Florida Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by Power View Post
..... That amount of difference with 2 similar vehicles is astounding.
The Astounding part is that he got 41-43mpg out of the 2004 that was rated at 21/31 or 26mpg mixed driving. That is 62% better than what they were rated at for that model, where his 2011 model is getting what it is rated at.

That still isn't a comparison of the two fuels though. He is comparing two different vehicles, and the one he is complaining about is getting what it is rated at. Yes, it is a huge drop from the older one, but the older one was a fluke, getting as high of milage as it did.

It also goes to show that the auto makers CAN build cars that get better milage, they just choose not to. There were cars back in the 1970s that could get the same or better mileage than a lot of the Hybrids do today.
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Old 07-11-2013, 01:07:40 PM
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Default Re: Ethanol Gas - Florida Update

Really? why would they choose not too? Getting great mileage seems like a pretty good way to sell vehicles......which is the goal of any automotive manufacturer.

Also, what kind of a 'fluke' would result in one vehicle getting that much greater mileage than the rest of those IN THE SAME PRODUCTION RUN? Or are there other owners of the same make and model vehicle also experiencing dramatically improved mileage?

This story is as old as the hills.....the notion that a certain vehicle could be put together 'just right', which somehow allows it to exceed all the others in mileage/performance/ longevity, etc....Certainly I believe that attention to detail can result in an improvement, I've seen it firsthand.....but a increase of the magnitude being discussed here?

Nah......there's got to be something else at work.
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Old 07-11-2013, 02:11:16 PM
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Default Re: Ethanol Gas - Florida Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by sprkplug View Post
.....the notion that a certain vehicle could be put together 'just right', which somehow allows it to exceed all the others in mileage/performance/ longevity, etc....Certainly I believe that attention to detail can result in an improvement, I've seen it firsthand.....but a increase of the magnitude being discussed here?

Nah......there's got to be something else at work.
OK then..... You try to explain how his 2004 got 62% better mileage than it was rated at......

Don't say anything about perfect wheel alignment or perfect computer settings, or hotter thermostat making the engine operate more efficiently, or having perfectly matched pistons and valve train geometry, or the ideal compression ratio, or the ideal air/fuel ratio through the entire operating range, or the ideal ignition timing advance rate or any other perfect combination of parts and settings, cause I already suggested that and you don't buy it.

So what's Your theory on why his old car got such great gas mileage.

It surely wasn't from being out of tune or having the brakes dragging or the front end out of alignment or any of the other mass production tolerances and errors that can lower the milage instead of increasing it.
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Old 07-11-2013, 02:57:37 PM
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Default Re: Ethanol Gas - Florida Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by OTTO-Sawyer View Post



So what's Your theory on why his old car got such great gas mileage.

What's more plausible:

The possibility that one, production line vehicle, could obtain 62% greater mileage than what the factory rated it at.....when, as I mentioned earlier, getting great mileage is a superb selling point:

Or, that there was an error, or anomaly made somewhere in the calculations or testing that produced such an improved figure.

I'm not calling anyone out.....but I am very much aware that we all make mistakes. I could see a slight improvement over factory specs, but I can't wrap my head around one as large as this one is reputed to be.....this is like that story where the guy invents a carburetor in his garage that gets 200 mpg, and the oil company buys him out to keep it quiet.....a great tale to be sure, but awfully short on proof when one starts digging.

Hearing the story is one thing, but verifying it for oneself is quite another. We need proof that it happened BEFORE looking for HOW it happened.

Bill, I mean you no slight, or insult....but outrageous claims demand outrageous proof.
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Old 07-11-2013, 03:42:07 PM
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Default Re: Ethanol Gas - Florida Update

Bill did you have both speedo,s set to KPH. or MPH.? Bob
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