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Antique Steel Wheel Tractors - Old Iron Lugs and Cleats

Early 1919 Twin City Rescued From Long Sleep


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  #161  
Old 06-04-2014, 10:34:18 PM
handyman1 handyman1 is offline
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Default Re: Early 1919 Twin City Rescued From Long Sleep

Hi Tony,

Beautiful old tractor! What do you use for your oil finish? I am about to buy a 1942 Farmall H in the near future. It will be my very first tractor! Although not as old as your Twin City, I'd like to keep the current paint it has on it; keep her in her "work clothes."

Thanks,
Alan
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  #162  
Old 06-05-2014, 03:05:05 PM
Tony Thompson Tony Thompson is offline
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Default Re: Early 1919 Twin City Rescued From Long Sleep

Alan,
There are several options for preserving finishes and if you do a search here you will see them disscussed in great detail.
I use 50/50 diesel fuel and motor oil. It is very easy, very cheap and will pressure wash off if needed. Only down side is the tractor will be messy for a week or two and should be parked inside after treatment to keep extra dust from sticking to it until the oil drys off a bit.
Just mix the petrol in a pump-up sprayer and go after it from top to bottom. Get it parked inside and wipe the extra off with an old rag. Buff it by hand with a rag two or three times the first week to help it dry off better and you are good to go for many months.
You could just hand rag the sheet metal out with a few ounces at first to see if this method will be ok for you. It does not seem to damage paint or decals.
Tony

Last edited by Tony Thompson; 06-05-2014 at 05:39:09 PM. Reason: gray haired and still can't spell...bonk!
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  #163  
Old 06-08-2014, 11:12:23 PM
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Default Re: Early 1919 Twin City Rescued From Long Sleep

Thanks Tony for the technical info on your valve spring issue! Did it not have this issue when you first put all the new springs in during the rebuild? What do you think caused it to just now start acting up?

Thanks!
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  #164  
Old 06-09-2014, 08:52:47 PM
Tony Thompson Tony Thompson is offline
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Default Re: Early 1919 Twin City Rescued From Long Sleep

JFred,
I always tell folks to replace old valve springs on serious rebuilds as they are heat cycled way and get very weak with age. Even new springs can "give up" a little tension after some run-in time. Apparently my machinest did not notice that some of the head surface around the guides were lower than others resulting in too tall of an installed height making one exhaust spring in particular very weak. It began to miss on that one and after carefully checking all sixteen I found some more that needed some shimming to make them all the same. I could have just shimed the one and ran it, but I wanted to make sure I got the rest closer to correct to avoid having to go back and do any of them again later.
I am heading to Rice Lake, WI for Prairie Gold Rush national MM-TC show with this tractor on June 27, 28, 29.
Tony
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  #165  
Old 06-09-2014, 10:14:59 PM
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Default Re: Early 1919 Twin City Rescued From Long Sleep

Thanks again Tony! Makes sense, did the tractor's owner's manual give the spec for the spring height? Am I correct in my thinking that the popping you described in the exhaust is caused by the exhaust valve not held tightly shut (due to weak spring pressure) when that particular cylinder would fire causing some of the explosion to leak past the valve and seat into the exhaust?
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  #166  
Old 06-10-2014, 11:32:25 PM
Tony Thompson Tony Thompson is offline
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Default Re: Early 1919 Twin City Rescued From Long Sleep

JFred,
Glad you found some of my ramblings useful or intertaining.
I have always enjoyed the really wonderful work you boys do!

The manual you say...
I am afraid there is little or no specs in the vague manual that was provided in the late teens. They tell you to use a very worn dime to set the points...They suggest using lampblack to set the rod bearings by feel and sight...lampblack is soot from kerosene lanterns.

Today an educated machinest can pick a spring according to wire diameter, number of coils and match these figures with requirments of a low rpm, low compression engine, then install them at a height that completes the formula or rule-of-thumb that they work by. Keep in mind that too much spring pressure can bend pushrods, wipe out antique camlobes, cup lifter bottoms, damage rockerarms, etc.

You are correct in your discription of the valve not held tight causing an audible leak, however, in higher rpm engines a weakly sprung valve can close too slowly, and the most common interuption in the combustion cycle is usually from the valve hitting the seat and bouncing back open briefly before finally closing a second or perhaps even a third time. This causes a tiny part of a very hot flame to leak past the head seat and valve face repeatedly burning or warping them.
Yet another problem is the bouncing valve can act much like a tiny hammer and will slowly pound the valve seat away.

Valve springs are affordable and they should always be considered when rebuilding antique engines. I have recently found springs that were heat cycled away in a late 1940s tractor. These days I am thinking that anything over 50 years old should be replaced
Tony
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  #167  
Old 06-11-2014, 06:23:29 PM
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Default Re: Early 1919 Twin City Rescued From Long Sleep

JFred & Tony,

Thanks for the excellent wording of how you describe the way things work. I can actually visualize it! A lot of us have a lot to learn in this hobby. I appreciate you guys.

Thanks,
Alan
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  #168  
Old 06-11-2014, 08:26:49 PM
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Default Re: Early 1919 Twin City Rescued From Long Sleep

We are currently working on a 12-20 we have had the head gone through and have new valves. After reading this thread we think we should install new springs as well. So if someone could give me the info on a reliable source for springs I'd appreciate it.
Thanks
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  #169  
Old 06-11-2014, 11:06:47 PM
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Default Re: Early 1919 Twin City Rescued From Long Sleep

Kevin,
It was a pleasure to meet you and your dad in the past!
Good thinking...do not put your old springs back in...you will certainly have trouble from them that cost you time and money in re-work.
Original springs are not available new anymore. You will need to locate a good machinest in your area that will take some time to look through the books to find you what you need. Many shops will not want this type of work. Call around, find someone that is willing to fit a modern set of springs in your antique head. Tell them that your head is less than 5-to-1 compression ratio and runs at 1,000 rpm wide open. Valve lift is very low so closed seat pressure requirements are minimal. An experienced mechanic/machinest will know what to do for your if he gets the information outlined here.
Good luck on your project!
Tony
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  #170  
Old 06-12-2014, 09:48:03 AM
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Default Re: Early 1919 Twin City Rescued From Long Sleep

I just replaced mine in my 12-20. I had new ones made up here at a local spring specialty shop. They were very reasonably priced and seem to be of good quality.
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  #171  
Old 06-12-2014, 10:28:59 AM
Molinegb Molinegb is offline
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Default Re: Early 1919 Twin City Rescued From Long Sleep

When head was done on my 12-20 the shop replaced all 16 springs,16 valves,16 guides, 3 valve seats and 16 valve tops.
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  #172  
Old 06-12-2014, 12:35:59 PM
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Default Re: Early 1919 Twin City Rescued From Long Sleep

Valve spring used in 12-20 were used in IH 248,251 motors. Part number 110-1288 form any spring supplier.
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  #173  
Old 06-12-2014, 07:17:36 PM
Nebraska Kirk Nebraska Kirk is offline
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Default Re: Early 1919 Twin City Rescued From Long Sleep

Was the same spring used on the 17-28?
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  #174  
Old 06-12-2014, 10:27:21 PM
Tony Thompson Tony Thompson is offline
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Default Re: Early 1919 Twin City Rescued From Long Sleep

Kirk,
The heads and springs are the same for 12-20 & 17-28.
The 12-20 was drawn up in 1916, running prototypes in 1917 and regular production from 1918 on. The tractor was so well done back in the day that the intire base platform remained unchanged to productions end in 1930. The last few leftover 1930 machines were slowly sold off up to 1935.
There were updates along the way...improved axle/spindle assemblys, larger fuel tank and the latest model carbs & mags were added along with a few little changes as suppliers made different parts over the 12 year plus production run, however, the bore, stroke, block, head, front frame, rear ends, etc. was all the same from 1919 on...(the early/rare Borg & Beck 12-20s like the one on detailed here has unique differences). The machines were re-rated in 1926 to better reflect their actual power output. They were a three plow tractor from 1918 to 1935.
Nearly 9,000 12-20s and 11,000 17-28s made the baby twin cams the highest production Twin City model made.
Early, correct 12-20s are rare because of the time frame. They were made so long ago that the survival rate is much lower.
Glad to learn of the I.H. spring in post #172 as that could help folks out considerably.
Good luck on your projects everyone!
Tony
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  #175  
Old 06-12-2014, 11:30:25 PM
Nebraska Kirk Nebraska Kirk is offline
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Default Re: Early 1919 Twin City Rescued From Long Sleep

That is VERY good news on the IH spring! They are still available from the CaseIH dealer and aftermarket sources like Tisco and A&I. Part #356951R1
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  #176  
Old 06-13-2014, 03:38:52 PM
Molinegb Molinegb is offline
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Default Re: Early 1919 Twin City Rescued From Long Sleep

To accomodate springs the valve spring caps were changed. 360 Dodge caps were used. Valves and guides were Mack. I have quite a hybrid!
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  #177  
Old 06-13-2014, 08:06:44 PM
Nebraska Kirk Nebraska Kirk is offline
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Default Re: Early 1919 Twin City Rescued From Long Sleep

Molinegb, thank you for the information on modern replacements for the valve train, but would you please give us more details?
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