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Fire Truck Engine Needed


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  #81  
Old 06-03-2019, 10:50:15 PM
Heins Heins is offline
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Default Re: Fire Truck Engine Needed

I don't see RD 450 stamped on the machined surface between #1 & #2. I don't know for sure if it is a RD 450.
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  #82  
Old 06-04-2019, 06:38:31 PM
cornbinder89 cornbinder89 is offline
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Default Re: Fire Truck Engine Needed

You did find the pad however? Being from the 40's it would be a RED not an RD, the main difference is it has a bypass oil filter system.
If the block was replaced, it was supposed to be stamped when installed, but may not have been
have you tried to clean up the pad?
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  #83  
Old 06-04-2019, 06:39:31 PM
Hubbie Hubbie is offline
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Default Re: Fire Truck Engine Needed

I read somewhere that there's another place it is also marked. Unfortunately I don't remember where I read it or can find that info
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  #84  
Old 06-04-2019, 06:41:51 PM
cornbinder89 cornbinder89 is offline
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Default Re: Fire Truck Engine Needed

It would be behind the compressor, below the head parting line on the block. That is the only place I have seen it.
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  #85  
Old 06-04-2019, 08:46:05 PM
Mark Schneider Mark Schneider is offline
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Default Re: Fire Truck Engine Needed

Heins...it's very likely that the engine that you are removing is not the original. If it's out of an old fleet truck chances are good that the long block has been changed more than once. Post the IH part number off the block....also the number of core (frost) plugs on the manifold side. Maybe an ID can be made with that info.

The RD 406 I found for the WK-40 project also had no CID markings on it. I didn't know what size it was until I pulled the head and measured the stroke.

It's very difficult to find a RD runner in this part of ND.
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  #86  
Old 06-04-2019, 11:13:28 PM
Heins Heins is offline
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Default Re: Fire Truck Engine Needed

It has a machined surface on the block just below the head gasket between #1 & #2 cylinders. I can't see anything on it, but it has another machined surface toward the back end of the block that has some #'s on it. It does have part# on the block, I will post it tomorrow. I have the compressor off and will look at the area again.

We had the engine running and it sounds good, I don't think he will find a better one. The truck is a "R" series around a 52 or 53 year.

It must be a big engine because the truck has two 50 gallon gas tanks on it!
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  #87  
Old 06-05-2019, 08:31:46 AM
cornbinder89 cornbinder89 is offline
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Default Re: Fire Truck Engine Needed

50's would be an RD with full flow oil filter. IIRC the RED they changed the bore more often and the stroke was common to more engines, the RD series they kept the bore more common and the stroke and possibly deck height changed between sizes.
Or I could have that backwards!
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  #88  
Old 06-05-2019, 09:25:59 AM
Heins Heins is offline
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Default Re: Fire Truck Engine Needed

The casting # on the engine block is 215720-R3 and it has 5 freeze plugs.
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  #89  
Old 06-05-2019, 02:47:34 PM
Mark Schneider Mark Schneider is offline
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Default Re: Fire Truck Engine Needed

It is a RD engine for sure. The 215720 block was used on 372, 406, and 450 CID engines using a 1" distributor hole. All have a 4.375" bore and different strokes are used.

372 = 4.13"
406 = 4.50"
450 = 5.00"

You should be able to dangle something down a spark plug hole and turn the crankshaft from TDC to BDC to determine the stroke.

It runs in my mind that the RED engine blocks had 3 frost plugs.
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  #90  
Old 06-05-2019, 07:08:02 PM
tharper tharper is offline
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Photo Re: Fire Truck Engine Needed

So here is a mystery... at the Museum the 1934 Lombard has a Red Diamond replacing the original Wisconsin D4 which went missing decades ago. We think its a 405 but we are not quite sure. There is a tag but its certainly not in English and what is stamped on the block makes no sense.

Its a very smooth running engine though we have to run a second transmission (I think it's from whatever the engine came out of originally) in front of the original (massive) 3 speed Cotta unit.

We have figured out that with the first transmission locked in 2nd it will run along just fine and still have plenty of power.

Again, it starts every time, runs smooth and compared to 8 mpg for the original Wisconsin it seems pretty economical though at some point we would love to find a Wisconsin D4 to put back in it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9Aomol9494
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  #91  
Old 06-05-2019, 07:38:55 PM
Heins Heins is offline
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Default Re: Fire Truck Engine Needed

I checked the stroke of the engine and I think it is 5" which would make it a 450.

The two spark plugs I took out had red paint on them, I don't think they have been replaced since the engine has been rebuilt or replaced and they aren't wore out.
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  #92  
Old 06-06-2019, 12:24:51 AM
keith1944 keith1944 is offline
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Default Re: Fire Truck Engine Needed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heins View Post
The Army used a big six cylinder gas engine in the duce and halves before they went to the diesel engine. I am not sure if they were Continental, Waukesha, or Hercules.
Military 5-tons used a Continental 6602 gasser before those awful "Multi-fuel" pieces of c**p. 602 cid I-6. Pretty large and robust but 24V electrical.
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  #93  
Old 06-06-2019, 09:07:31 AM
Heins Heins is offline
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Default Re: Fire Truck Engine Needed

I wouldn't call the "Multi-fuel" awful, I drove them in the duce and half from Ft Benning to Eglin in Fl. We would get on the road, pull the throttle wide open and never did blow one up. White put them in farm tractors and they would pull good and start good.
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  #94  
Old 06-06-2019, 09:30:24 AM
miltruck miltruck is offline
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Default Re: Fire Truck Engine Needed

Actually the multi fuel engines are slightly smaller physically than the R6602 used in the 5 tons. They were originally used in the 2.5 ton M35 series with 140 hp as a replacement for the White gas engines and only later used in the 5 ton M54 series when they upped the horsepower with turbo upgrades and increased fuel settings (about 175 hp). I think they work well in the M35 application but fall short when used in the 5 tons. The R6602 will blow one of the 5 ton multi's away as it has more HP (220 hp) and torque (over 500 ftlb at 1,200 rpm or so) and will run at 2,800 rpm all day. Just get out your gas card. Got clocked at almost 65 mph in our modified M139 water truck on 1400x20 rubber on flat ground. Kind of scary at that speed on old tires and single circuit juice brakes.

A multi fuel may be a good fit in the subject truck, but would be way too "new".

Go to the Steel Soldiers web site for more info on the multi fuels. Very interesting engine design and the history of why it was developed and where it originated (Germany).
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  #95  
Old 06-06-2019, 12:46:36 PM
Heins Heins is offline
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Default Re: Fire Truck Engine Needed

I wondered who owned the engine as I have seen three or four different manufactures build them. Did the military own the design of the engine?
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  #96  
Old 06-06-2019, 03:29:52 PM
miltruck miltruck is offline
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Default Re: Fire Truck Engine Needed

As far a I know, either White Motors or Continental worked with MAN to develop the engine design for the military so yes the Government controlled the design and had multiple builders supply engines under bid contracts. All the engines in the same series are identical regardless of who built them. A lot of the engines I have looked at were built by White Motors.

Engines do smoke a lot even when running correctly especially if they do not have a turbo. In a nod to the EPA, a turbo kit was installed on the non-turbo motors to cut down on the exhaust smoke. If I recall correctly, the piston has the combustion chamber formed in the crown and it actually injects the fuel in a partial liquid form into the bowl in a swirl pattern which slows down the combustion speed in the cylinder. The pump has a fuel density compensator which adjusts the fuel delivery dependent on the actual density of the fuel in use (many were disconnected). This is why the use of gas causes the fuel mileage to plummet. Engine compression ratio is quite high for this vintage engine at over 20:1 (maybe 23:1?) and if everything is right with a little intake air heat (built into the intake manifold) they were designed to start at 30 degrees below zero on their own batteries. This of course was due to an add on "cold weather kit" which included battery warmers, covers, insulation and other additions.

I have read accounts of a number of guys using waste engine oil cut with diesel oil, waste or virgin veg oil both raw and processed, half and half gas and fuel oil and any number of other combinations of fuel to run their trucks. By all accounts the use of 100% gas is for "war time emergency use only" as it will wreck the pumps and power use goes way down and fuel mileage is almost cut in half. With only 135-140 hp to start with I don't think anyone would/should use just gas.

Very neat engines and if not mistreated will run a long time.
The more I think about it, it was White that designed the engine as there were a couple of their tractor engines that used the same basic block assembly with "standard" heads and pumps. Power output was in the range of 75-100 hp so when the mult-ifuels were bumped up to 200 hp in their final form you can see how they got the reputation of being fragile.
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  #97  
Old 06-06-2019, 03:50:28 PM
Heins Heins is offline
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Default Re: Fire Truck Engine Needed

Here is the engine ready to be picked up. I knocked the rivets out of the two rear mounts so if your frame is about the correct size, all you would have to do is mount them in your frame.
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  #98  
Old 06-06-2019, 09:40:37 PM
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Dwayne Fuller Dwayne Fuller is offline
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Default Re: Fire Truck Engine Needed

Looks like the firetruck is about to be re-powered. This is good stuff. Keep us updated.
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  #99  
Old 06-06-2019, 10:36:23 PM
Mark Schneider Mark Schneider is offline
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Default Re: Fire Truck Engine Needed

Quote:
Originally Posted by tharper View Post
So here is a mystery... at the Museum the 1934 Lombard has a Red Diamond replacing the original Wisconsin D4 which went missing decades ago. We think its a 405 but we are not quite sure.
International did not build a 405 CID in the Red Diamond engine configuration. Several are close...the RD 406 and the RED 401. If you get a chance post the IHC block number and the number of frost plugs on the manifold side. Maybe this info can be used to determine which engine is being used in the RePowered Lombard.
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  #100  
Old 06-06-2019, 11:10:56 PM
Heins Heins is offline
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Default Re: Fire Truck Engine Needed

Here is a picture of the right side of the engine, it has five freeze plugs on the side. Post #88 shows the casting # of the block.

I don't think this engine has a freeze plug in the back of the block like yours.
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