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Waterloo Boy Experimental Tractor (Bathtub D) Restoration


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  #21  
Old 06-03-2013, 10:06:30 PM
Dan thomas Dan thomas is offline
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Default Re: Waterloo Boy Experimental Tractor (Bathtub D)Restoration

Here are a few pics of the exp tractor when i got it. Dan Thomas
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Old 06-03-2013, 10:13:30 PM
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Default Re: Waterloo Boy Experimental Tractor (Bathtub D)Restoration

I find it quite hard to believe that the archives does not any any information on this. I won't say it's not possible though and I know Jack Cherry probably has as good of a connection as anyone with the JD archives. It's quite sad Deere has become so closed door with their archives, but probably shouldn't be a surprise in this day and age.
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  #23  
Old 06-03-2013, 10:54:47 PM
Dan thomas Dan thomas is offline
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Default Re: Waterloo Boy Experimental Tractor (Bathtub D)Restoration

I used to go to JD archives in the 90s but now some of my friends that still work at deere can't get in. And maybe there isn't any thing there. there is some onfo in theo browns diary but i think that waterloo boy was past this version by the time deere bought them. Lous whitry(waterloo boy engineer at that time) wrote just a few notes on the tractor. All of the gears are by the nuttal gear co,name stamped on gears,is still in business but the old building burnt down,all records gone.blueprint would have been nice!! Dan
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Old 06-04-2013, 12:42:11 AM
Jason W Jason W is offline
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Default Re: Waterloo Boy Experimental Tractor (Bathtub D)Restoration

Is this a restoration or a re-creation? Doesn't look like there was much there to start with.
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Old 06-04-2013, 09:36:47 AM
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Default Re: Waterloo Boy Experimental Tractor (Bathtub D)Restoration

One has to keep in mind these Experimental Early design concept units weren't supposed to survive. They were usually dismantled and analyzed to see if the idea would work as intended, then they went to work on the next version and it's improvements on the concept. Once a project has has gone into the finished product and into production there is little need for the first experiments or their paper work, so it's clean out the shop and on to the next project. As stated earlier many components were probably reused on the next version rather than build all new each time so as to keep expenses down, remember these projects have a limited budget from the head office. I find it strange that the chassis was buried rather than broken up and sent back to the foundry. If we want to see a complete version of it this is the only way, the only concern is to get it close to right. This may also be why Deere is a bit reluctant to be part of any project like this. Just food for thought. F.J.W.
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Old 06-04-2013, 07:50:44 PM
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Default Re: Waterloo Boy Experimental Tractor (Bathtub D)Restoration

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Originally Posted by FWurth View Post
One has to keep in mind these Experimental Early design concept units weren't supposed to survive. They were usually dismantled and analyzed to see if the idea would work as intended, then they went to work on the next version and it's improvements on the concept. Once a project has has gone into the finished product and into production there is little need for the first experiments or their paper work, so it's clean out the shop and on to the next project. As stated earlier many components were probably reused on the next version rather than build all new each time so as to keep expenses down, remember these projects have a limited budget from the head office. I find it strange that the chassis was buried rather than broken up and sent back to the foundry. If we want to see a complete version of it this is the only way, the only concern is to get it close to right. This may also be why Deere is a bit reluctant to be part of any project like this. Just food for thought. F.J.W.
No argument with any of that but I'm just curious what it will be represented as when its done is all. Kind of like Corey Anderson building a 150hp Case Engine or the guy who put together a Holt steam crawler.
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Old 06-04-2013, 09:42:55 PM
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Default Re: Waterloo Boy Experimental Tractor (Bathtub D)Restoration

It's a fair question. I suppose museums have been in the business of replicating that which no longer exists or is mostly non-existent. At least with this, the main case will be original. Is it different than "parting together" a tractor from parts which, while original to some tractor, are nothing to do with the tractor that is represented? Many dinosaur skeletons in museums I suppose are incomplete but the museum will fabricate the missing bits in the interest of educating and entertaining the public. I am aware of an "ancient" Packard car built entirely from new castings and blueprints - hardly an ounce of original material. If you can't tell it from the original, then what?

I work with people who do not understand this hobby in the least. They are fond of interrogating me as to what constitutes original, what is restored, which is better/more valuable, etc. In the end, many hours and more than a moderate amount of scholarship will go into recreating the "bathtub" D, long thought lost to history. It may only be 50% or less comprised of parts it came with when it was built but I know of many much more common and less interesting tractors that, once the broken and worn out bits are replaced, are little more than that percentage of the original tractor.

If we are replacing worn out parts and do not retain the original, is that any different than not having the original part at all? If you retain only the original castings and replace all the internal parts which remain unseen, is that a problem? I would be interested in the comments of all stakkers on this topic. Tractors of sufficient rarity and value exist and wealth is great enough in the tractor community that the same thing will happen to tractors that has been going on with antique cars for years.

I've seen it said on this site words to the effect, "If it was built once, it can be built again." This is true but at least among the reputable makes, metalurgy and a degree of engineering is present. When tractors are created with new parts, care should be taken not to cast connecting rods from old bits of toasters. Just because it looks like the part doesn't make it function like the part. For me, if the tractor is indistinguishable from the original and can do everything the original did, I see no need to specify that some proportion be original. Maybe we'll go the way of the ACD club and categorize tractors they way they do Duesenbergs (Category 1, 2, 3, and 4, etc.)!
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  #28  
Old 06-04-2013, 09:55:45 PM
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Default Re: Waterloo Boy Experimental Tractor (Bathtub D)Restoration

Well said Eric! Very eloquent and a great point of view as far as I'm concerned. There are a few tractors being restored from a little more than oil stains nowadays. They are none the less fascinating to me!
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  #29  
Old 06-05-2013, 04:57:22 PM
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Default Re: Waterloo Boy Experimental Tractor (Bathtub D)Restoration

These extensive restorations (recreations) have been going on in the UK for many years in the steam community and as a result many extinct variations are now avilable for display or private collections. Almost all are first class work and fill in the blank spaces in the evolution of the mechanical revolution. I see no problem with this as long as they are properly represeneted. If I had the resources I would do the same myself as there are very limited examples of some units that I would love to have and they just cannot be obtained for any amt of cash. F.J.W.
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Old 06-05-2013, 06:38:59 PM
Ed Bezanson Ed Bezanson is offline
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Default Re: Waterloo Boy Experimental Tractor (Bathtub D)Restoration

I think Eric stated it best. 3 years ago I helped a good friend reconstruct a 1923 Avery Trackrunner. All we had was the engine, trans, Differental and track system. We had to fabricate the rest from scratch. Luckily there is one other Avery in the Simplot collection and we got permission to take many pictures and templates so we had something to go by. It took me about 6 months to do the necessary fabrication which is all recorded on a Stak thread.
Now we brought the Avery to the big Avery show at Rollag and had overwelming positive response. I don't remember anyone saying anything about the reconstruction as to its status in the future. We are completely open about what we had done and would never make any claims about it's originality. I can say several people asked if it was for sale and even offered large sums of money for it. It is not for sale at this time but will be sommetime in the future. I just wonder how it will be received at that time. For me the most important thing is it has been saved for future generations and not wether it is all original. Just a thought Ed B
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  #31  
Old 06-05-2013, 10:21:13 PM
Dan thomas Dan thomas is offline
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Default Re: Waterloo Boy Experimental Tractor (Bathtub D)Restoration

As you can see from the pics of what i started with i am going to be open with what i had to start with, what I gather as original parts and what has to be fabbed. I will never represent it as a all original tractor,it just seemed that there was enough of the tractor to try to bring it back as close as poss. No way will it be perfect,as without pics ,blueprints or any solid info to go by. It is what it is ,nothing more nothing less. I will leave it up to each person to decide if it is of interest or not.
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  #32  
Old 06-05-2013, 11:18:59 PM
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Default Re: Waterloo Boy Experimental Tractor (Bathtub D)Restoration

The lines between restoration, rebuild, recreation, rebuild, tribute are blurry. Is something more original if you start with an original engine vs. frame/wheels vs. transmission, etc? Everyone can form their individual opinions, but owners should enjoy their collectibles for how they see them and what they mean to them. I have some engines that may not be considered very valuable by others, but to me they are priceless as they remind me of good times and a connection I shared with my Grandfather.

I've found that the importance of originality is a based on the number of surviving examples. If there are 1000s of a collectible toy left, then the toy is basically worthless if it's not in the original box/package. If there are 100s of a collectible vehicle left, then original parts and matching numbers are all the more important. When you are down to handfuls of surviving examples or a one of kind, it's much less important. After all, where are you going to get another one?

While I'm not sure I would technically consider this a surviving tractor, it's definitely a surviving piece of history that is being brought back to life. In the end, that is what is most important from my viewpoint. And I greatly appreciate that it's being shared on this forum for all to enjoy!
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Old 06-05-2013, 11:39:47 PM
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Default Re: Waterloo Boy Experimental Tractor (Bathtub D)Restoration

Ford made 5 or 6 "NEW" Model T's around 2000. Are these not Authentic? Some aftermarket parts, but most made by Ford themself. If you asked me I would rather have a 1 of 6 "new" than a 1 of 15 million "restored".
I've also seen that another mammoth was found in Siberia this month, they claim they have extracted blood. If they can clone a mammoth and have it carried to term in an elephant, is it real or a reproduction? (man playing God again)
So for the experimental in question here. It may be sheer luck or fate that it has survived all this time and that it was found. It will also have the distinct privelage of being a Wendell Kelch creation...
Plus I want to see Wendell spin it clockwise to start her
Roby
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Old 06-06-2013, 08:07:59 AM
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Default Re: Waterloo Boy Experimental Tractor (Bathtub D)Restoration

To the best of my knowledge there are no pictures of the first prototype with the gear to gear rear end unless the fellow on post 34 has pictures that we don't have? I can time the camshaft so the engine runs either way but it I run it counterclockwise I will have 2 reverse gears and 1 forward gear. I am VERY excited I am getting the opportunity to bring this special piece of John Deere history back to life! The owner and me have been bouncing ideas off each other and I think we got 75% or better of the stuff figured out and the rest will come as pieces fall together. There will be a few OH CRAPS!! as we go along but that goes with a project like this. Wendell Kelch
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:47:04 PM
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Default Re: Waterloo Boy Experimental Tractor (Bathtub D)Restoration

wow nice restoring project! hope see this tractor get running again soon.



btw If you know my bro Rob? I'm Pat.

I did restored that rear wheels.
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Old 06-07-2013, 11:17:45 PM
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Default Re: Waterloo Boy Experimental Tractor (Bathtub D)Restoration

I wasn't trying to stir the pot I'm just genuinely curious about what this would be considered as in the grand scheme of history. Is it a 1:1 scale model (tribute tractor) using an original crankcase or is it a restoration using pictures of what was and a lot of creative deduction and fabrication to figure out how to put it together?

I've attended a number of model engine shows and many of the pieces are excellent works of craftsmanship as well as representations of engines that are long since gone. They are no less fascinating to me than the real thing. They are educational and beautiful. But there is no question of what they are either. I guess this thread serves as good documentation for anyone to look at pictures and decide for themselves where this piece fits in tractor history.
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Old 06-10-2013, 05:47:02 PM
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Default Re: Waterloo Boy Experimental Tractor (Bathtub D)Restoration

I will try to answer some of the questions on some posts post #5-i have not seen any thing in theo browns diary about the case flexing-not all diary yrs are on the net yet.those straps are repairs to some of the cracks-there are many cracks.crank was in it. All shafts trains,crank have hyatt roller bearings-still good enough to use- amazing. Post #8 most waterloon boys have counterbalance weights-those were missing when found.
Post #12 wendell,wendell maybe a contracting band clutch like a WATERLOO BOY, just kidding.
Post#13 as I have not seen allof theo browns diarys don't know what all he says-but I don't think he was aware of this project as Deere did not buy waterloo gas engine co untill march of 1918. The best i can gather is this unit was being experimented with in spring of 1917.
Post 18 this pic is of later version-chain drive-taller &longer case.tbc Dan

---------- Post added at 05:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:21 PM ----------

Post #19 this looks like 1921 version exhaust on top of motor,rear wheels have more &smaller spokes.post #22 i do agree may be more in archives, but the letter that deere sent me was plain that it is closed to john q public.jack cherry sent me a email that said threre was not much else and that i was a good mech and would figure it out. Post #24&26 i was suprised at this post-no offended-i had never really thought about it before. That is a fair question. I don't know what i will call it-it started as a waterloo boy-later beame a jd D.When finished(that is a very dim light at the end of the tunnel) i just hope that it is enjoyed by many.When i have displayed it (gog,ohio two cylinder club,bollinger s waterloo boy rally) have always included all pics and info that i have. Maybe the true owner, my 4 yr old grandson eli can decide how it will be displayed.if i can find the pic i will show him at 2yr inside of maincase when al l gears where out. Dan
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  #38  
Old 06-10-2013, 05:50:53 PM
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Default Re: Waterloo Boy Experimental Tractor (Bathtub D)Restoration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason W View Post
I wasn't trying to stir the pot I'm just genuinely curious about what this would be considered as in the grand scheme of history. Is it a 1:1 scale model (tribute tractor) using an original crankcase or is it a restoration using pictures of what was and a lot of creative deduction and fabrication to figure out how to put it together?.
How about calling it a Recreation instead of a Restoration.

Recreated from the donor DNA of the surviving carcass.

Just a thought anyway.....
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Old 06-10-2013, 09:22:45 PM
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Default Re: Waterloo Boy Experimental Tractor (Bathtub D)Restoration

I restored my '29 Stutz from a chassis,front fenders, wheels and part of the original cowl. The Stutz Club referred to it as a "resurrection"!
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Old 06-10-2013, 09:40:56 PM
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Default Re: Waterloo Boy Experimental Tractor (Bathtub D)Restoration

Good one Phil! And Wendell is one of the best "resurrectors" out there!
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