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Antique Steel Wheel Tractors - Old Iron Lugs and Cleats

1927 20-35 Allis Chalmers


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  #61  
Old 05-01-2016, 06:49:02 PM
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Default Re: 1927 20-35 Allis Chalmers

The clutch shifting collar is the weak point on these tractors. What happens is that with the expanding shoe clutch, as they get a bit worn they tend to slip a bit. When tightened up too much they get difficult to lock over center. I've seen way too many guys have to use a cheater pipe on the lever just to operate the clutch and that puts way too much pressure and wear on the bronze collar. Result is they wear badly and need to be built back up and remachined. Both surfaces. We had the clutch on the last one I was into relined at a brake supply shop and that helps a lot.
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Old 05-01-2016, 09:04:51 PM
Jacob WI Jacob WI is offline
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Default Re: 1927 20-35 Allis Chalmers

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Result is they wear badly and need to be built back up and remachined. Both surfaces.
So what is the best way to accomplish this? The collar and shifter should be how big and how much play should there be between the two when new? Remember, I'm not scared to tear into these projects, but there is a lot I don't know yet

For example (and probably a dumb question) how do I know the clutch is adjusted correctly once I get it back together? How does one know if it is slipping?

Thanks!
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  #63  
Old 05-01-2016, 10:29:28 PM
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Default Re: 1927 20-35 Allis Chalmers

Over-center clutches as on heavy Oilpulls can get so that when tight enough to hold when past center, they are very tight to get over center. This is with good dry friction surfaces. This is because they go too far over center. The solution is to put spacer washers behind or on before the bronze shifting collar or add material to limit the travel past center. I had this problem when there was no significant wear in the bronze collar groove or the collar. Before fixing, I had to hold the clutch back right on center to prevent slip when plowing.
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  #64  
Old 05-01-2016, 11:47:21 PM
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Default Re: 1927 20-35 Allis Chalmers

Talk to H Simmons at Carrington ND, he advertises on the site and he is close to you.
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Old 05-14-2016, 06:59:28 PM
Jacob WI Jacob WI is offline
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Default Re: 1927 20-35 Allis Chalmers

Hi all!

I got my shifter back from the local machine shop yesterday. They made a two piece collar and brazed it on like was suggested. They are not set up to spray weld so this was the best option we though. Much less slop now.


I also had them turn off the badly worn thrust surface of the two kingpin bushings. I replaced it with a heavy duty oilite washer. So since I had all the parts, I put the spindles back together. New welsh plugs and tie rod bushings as well.



I also cleaned up the good push rods I had. Three are badly pitted on the bottom, so I'll get better ones.
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Old 05-14-2016, 07:04:43 PM
Jacob WI Jacob WI is offline
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Default Re: 1927 20-35 Allis Chalmers

I also cleaned up some small parts. The other front hubcap.


And the push rod covers, and the clutch access cover. Is the hole on the center of the clutch cover supposed to be there?


The piece under the dash.


And the oil pan bottom cover. This cover can be removed to clean and service the oil pump screen. I got a new drain plug as the original was very rounded off.
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  #67  
Old 05-14-2016, 07:16:00 PM
Jacob WI Jacob WI is offline
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Default Re: 1927 20-35 Allis Chalmers

I also cleaned up the radius rods, and the front axle pin, and the rear pivot bracket. With this stuff done, the front end is about all ready to go back together.


Back in WI Dad has been experimenting with ways to cut felt seals. Since I have the clutch apart, now is the time to put in a new felt seal to keep the transmission fluid out of the clutch compartment. He had a scrap piece of 3/8" felt, so we brainstormed on how to cut it out neatly and I came up with this idea so he tried it out.
Sandwich the felt between two thin pieces of plywood with a screw down through the center. Using the center of the screw as a point, use a compass to draw the circles. Bring to the scroll saw and cut the outside first, then the inside from a drilled hole.
This is how it turned out, not bad

I thought it was a trick worth sharing, unless someone has a better way? We are always trying to do things with what we have available
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Old 05-20-2016, 09:51:37 PM
Jacob WI Jacob WI is offline
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Default Re: 1927 20-35 Allis Chalmers

Hi everyone!

So I got the clutch put back together. The felt seal Dad made worked. It was a tad on the tight side, but I smeared grease on it when I assembled it and think it will be ok.

A couple of bits of advice for those thinking of tackling this. Have a big puller handy when you are going to take the gear off, as it comes off hard. And have a press handy when you want to put that gear back on. It goes back on hard too. I didn't want to wait until I got home where the press was, so I beat it on with a piece of pipe and a BFH, but waiting to use the press would have been SO much easier! Now I know...

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  #69  
Old 06-12-2016, 05:32:01 PM
Jacob WI Jacob WI is offline
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Default Re: 1927 20-35 Allis Chalmers

So I have some big progress to report! I made a trip back to WI to spend some time with the family and get some tractor time in over the first week of June. With Dad's help we got a lot accomplished.

Started out by putting all the redone clutch parts back into the tractor.


Unfortunately we had to take a step backwards. I noticed that one of the clutch lining rivets was mostly pulled through the lining, and needed to be redone. I don't know how we missed that when cleaning it all up, but that is neither here nor there, it needed to be fixed, so we pulled the shoes back off and I'll order up some new lining material and get it fixed up properly.

The next thing we tackled was the break band assembly. Got that all back on the tractor, as that was already relined and waiting if you remember from a previous post.

It was kinda a pain in the butt to get it back on and adjusted correctly. The pins were still a snug fit even all cleaned up, and the clevis was slightly bent goofy, so the pin had to go in just right to go in easily and some of it was easier to do while laying under the tractor, which in itself is a pain. But I got it!
Everything can't go easily, or everyone would do it
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Old 06-12-2016, 05:54:17 PM
Jacob WI Jacob WI is offline
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Default Re: 1927 20-35 Allis Chalmers

The rest of the stuff we worked on was a kinda bounce around and work on different things all at once based on the weather and focus (or lack there of )

Got the heads put back together (mostly).


Here I am putting the valves together. Question for you all, is there a trick to getting the safety snap ring back on these new valves? It looks to me like they were machined wrong, as in too high up on the stem. The original valves had a cotter pin a little ways down from where the spring washer sits. So if a spring were to break the valve wouldn't completely drop into the cylinder. But the new valves have a snap ring immediately under where the spring washer sits, so there is no way to put the snap ring on before the spring and washer because you need to push the washer down the stem a bit to get the valve keeper clips installed. And putting the snap rings on after the springs are installed would be near impossible.
Am I missing something?
For now I just didn't put the snap rings on.
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Old 06-12-2016, 06:04:52 PM
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Default Re: 1927 20-35 Allis Chalmers

Then we bounced to the upper engine pan. The hole where the rear radius rod bracket pivot mounts was worn, so we got the handy dandy drill press out and set up a reamer to make the hole round and the correct size for a bushing to be installed to take up the slop. Of course I wasn't in the ball enough to have the bushing on hand, so we had to bounce around again and work on something else.


I then got the timing gears all back together in the front of the engine.


With the gears in, the front cover could then be put on. What I don't show is the hours spent cleaning all of this stuff up to be able to put it back together, but I'm sure we all know that process all to well...
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  #72  
Old 06-12-2016, 06:16:41 PM
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Default Re: 1927 20-35 Allis Chalmers

With the front cover on, we adjusted the cam thrust play. From just a guess we adjusted it to half a turn out from tight, which gives a little play. I talked with a friend after who suggested one full turn out from tight. So we might loosen it up a bit more before we get it going. For those that have done it, what did you all set yours at?

Then the mid pan went on the engine, with the crank seals installed.


We checked over all the cotter pins for the crankshaft main bearing caps and connecting rod caps, as the machine shop didn't quite finish that job up to snuff. Some were missing and some were not properly installed. Might have been because I was rushing them to pick up the engine on a previous trip, but still a little frustrating
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Old 06-12-2016, 06:27:47 PM
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Default Re: 1927 20-35 Allis Chalmers

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Originally Posted by Jacob WI View Post
The rest of the stuff we worked on was a kinda bounce around and work on different things all at once based on the weather and focus (or lack there of )

Got the heads put back together (mostly).


Here I am putting the valves together. Question for you all, is there a trick to getting the safety snap ring back on these new valves? It looks to me like they were machined wrong, as in too high up on the stem. The original valves had a cotter pin a little ways down from where the spring washer sits. So if a spring were to break the valve wouldn't completely drop into the cylinder. But the new valves have a snap ring immediately under where the spring washer sits, so there is no way to put the snap ring on before the spring and washer because you need to push the washer down the stem a bit to get the valve keeper clips installed. And putting the snap rings on after the springs are installed would be near impossible.
Am I missing something?
For now I just didn't put the snap rings on.
Jacob, 2 things come to mind on the snap ring . First off if it's that close to the keeper are we sure it's not for an O ring to control oil leaking past the stems? And the other thought is that these valves are a will fit situation and that snap ring groove is for a different keeper arrangement that won't work on this application. That said I believe you did the best thing and left it off. About the only other thing you could have done would be to drill the stem as the original was. As long as the springs are good I don't see it dropping a valve, however just like modern engines, it the motor develops a miss on a cylinder check it out right away to be sure the valves are ok and you will not have any troubles. Your doing a great job .
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Old 06-12-2016, 06:32:02 PM
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Default Re: 1927 20-35 Allis Chalmers

Then I had to turn my attention to cleaning up the oil pan, and the oil pump because it is inside of the oil pan.

I'm still looking for advice on how to set the oil pump relief ball. Silly me didn't measure or take note of how far in the screw was set before I disassembled everything. I just used an educated guess as to where it was when reassembling it. We might have to reach up in there and adjust it later if I can find someone that can tell me how it should be set. But I hear the later 20-35's oil pumps are different, so finding this info might be tricky.


Here is the oil pump and drive gear installed in the oil pan.

The lock bolt is safety wired on like it was originally.
Another question, how much play should there be in the drive shaft for the pump front to back?
There was about 1/8" play in mine, so we put an oilite thrust washer in the front bushing piece that the driveshaft goes into, to take up some of the play.

The oil pickup screen was rebuilt next. I got the new brass screen from McMaster Carr, and the rivets were a garage sale score!
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Old 06-12-2016, 06:43:16 PM
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Default Re: 1927 20-35 Allis Chalmers

Then the oil pan could go back on the engine, along with the oil pickup screen cover.


Put on the remaining covers I had, and made some plywood temporary covers for the other holes, and got the engine tipped over to get ready to load into the trailer to haul back to the barn where the rest of the tractor is!


Loading it in the trailer was an adventure in itself, as my 1956 Chevy truck I am restoring is sitting in front of this engine, so that had to be pulled out first, so the trailer could be shoe horned into the garage so we could finagle the block up and into the trailer. Oh did I mention it was raining the entire time we were doing this?
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Old 06-12-2016, 06:56:32 PM
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Default Re: 1927 20-35 Allis Chalmers

Things went a lot smoother once we got to the woods. With the D15 moving the engine around was a piece of cake. Picked it up, pulled the trailer ahead, and brought the engine into the barn. Fortunately it was mostly done raining by then.


Putting the engine back into the tractor!

Being down in the sand, working on rusty old iron, does life get any better?!

---------- Post added at 05:56:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:50:07 PM ----------

Then, with the engine in, some of the other assemblies I had previously finished could go back on the tractor. The fan assembly was put on, the front crank pulley was put on, the heads were just set on for now. The front axle was put back on, and once I gather up a few more pieces from some friends I can get the front wheels put back on and it can sit on its own feet for the first time since I got it!
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Old 06-12-2016, 07:05:23 PM
Jacob WI Jacob WI is offline
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Default Re: 1927 20-35 Allis Chalmers

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Originally Posted by FWurth View Post
Jacob, 2 things come to mind on the snap ring . First off if it's that close to the keeper are we sure it's not for an O ring to control oil leaking past the stems? And the other thought is that these valves are a will fit situation and that snap ring groove is for a different keeper arrangement that won't work on this application. That said I believe you did the best thing and left it off. About the only other thing you could have done would be to drill the stem as the original was. As long as the springs are good I don't see it dropping a valve, however just like modern engines, it the motor develops a miss on a cylinder check it out right away to be sure the valves are ok and you will not have any troubles. Your doing a great job .
I'm pretty sure the groves are for the snap rings, as the rings came with the valves, and not for o rings. And these valves were machined for this application, so I don't think the different keeper arrangement is it either. There are different keeper arrangements for these engines, but he supplies different sets of valves for each keeper variation. I should just call him up and ask, but that would be to easy right I'm betting it was just a machining error. Looked good on paper, but in real life it works a little different.
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Old 06-12-2016, 11:39:02 PM
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Default Re: 1927 20-35 Allis Chalmers

If that is the little round wire snap ring that I'm thinking of, it seems to me that I installed them on the valve stems and slid them down a little below the grooves. Then I installed the spring and washer and with the spring compressed installed the keepers. After releasing the spring compressor, I was able to reach between the coils with a small flat screwdriver and slide the snap ring up the stem until it snapped into the groove.
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Old 06-13-2016, 09:25:16 AM
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Default Re: 1927 20-35 Allis Chalmers

I thought of that as well but I was concerned that after it was in place you wouldn't be able to release the keepers the next time as the snap ring wouldn't allow the retainer to be compressed enough to remove the keepers. A thought on the drilled hole in the clutch cover, likely it was to mount a flex tube to lubricate the throw out collar with out having to remove the cover, a common improvement.
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Old 06-13-2016, 07:42:39 PM
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Default Re: 1927 20-35 Allis Chalmers

That is one idea I hadn't thought of Phil, thanks. I had come to the conclusion that they must have to be installed after the springs, but like Frank mentioned, I was also worried that removing the springs after would be impossible. I guess if that need arises, the snap ring would have to be popped off first through the spring.
I'd feel better having the snap ring on there, just in case a spring were to break. I'm using old springs, not new, so one just never knows....

As for the hole in the clutch cover, that is the best guess I've heard so far Frank, thanks.
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