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Re: How it's Done 3-5


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  #81  
Old 02-29-2016, 08:51:52 AM
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Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

I built that bike and engine up in 2015. The engine was a worn out beat up old hulk from a tortured atv. Amazing what a little rattle can paint can do to appearance huh..
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Old 02-29-2016, 01:29:44 PM
tdmidget tdmidget is offline
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Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

.03 mm is barely .001" Seems rather tight to me.
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  #83  
Old 03-08-2016, 06:41:56 PM
David K David K is offline
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Default Re: Sleeve or Plate con't

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Originally Posted by John Tice View Post
JT,

Do these iron rings that are left behind from the old sleeve cause any problems (like when you heat the cylinder to 500 deg F, do the rings loosen up)?

By the way, great post. I just found it. I've been spending too much time surfing the internet because I've been laid up for quite some time now because of a messed up back. I've got a machinist background and have built a machine shop at home. I've always wondered how ported cylinders were sleeved. The nitric acid trick is slick. Also after the ports are etched, I never thought the sleeve would come back out so easily. This is a classic example of "how in the world do they do this?" but once someone explains how to do it, it's simple and slick. Thanks for sharing.

Dave
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  #84  
Old 03-08-2016, 06:53:55 PM
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Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

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Originally Posted by tdmidget View Post
.03 mm is barely .001" Seems rather tight to me.
I used to set up the old air cooled Honda CR 125 pistons with .01mm clearance. Yes there was a small bit of skirt drag. Break in was to let them idle for a few minutes until hot then ride it slowly for 15 minutes.

These little engines used to break skirts and the tight clearance kept them from rattling around in the bore. Bear in mind these were with OEM cast pistons that had porosity which holds a lot of oil in the material. Don't try it with an aftermarket forged piston.

I got a call from American Honda asking why I ran them so tight and I cited the above reason. They went oh,,, but Honda says x clearance. And that's why they break I responded.
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  #85  
Old 03-08-2016, 07:08:08 PM
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Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

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Originally Posted by I like oldstuff View Post
I used to set up the old air cooled Honda CR 125 pistons with .01mm clearance.
That's 4/10,000th's (.0004"). Do you mean .1mm (.004")?
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  #86  
Old 03-08-2016, 09:53:24 PM
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Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

Nope! half a thou. Slightest skirt drag in the dry bore. Oil it up and there is more drag.

They ran strong and lasted a long time. Sez a lot about the stability of the metallurgy back then doesn't it. Bear in mind this was for MX'ers where you're WFO for 5 seconds then off for 5 seconds. *I wouldn't dare set them up that tight for a flat tracker or road racer where you are wfo 80% of the time. Those got .0015. Many set them up with .003-.004" and they'd rattle the skirts off or hammer the ring grooves.

If you find an OEM cast piston out of an old jap two stroker put it on a hot plate and heat it up. It'll sweat a lot of oil out of the pores. That's the safety factor on deceleration when the carb is closed and no oil is being put into the engine.
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  #87  
Old 03-09-2016, 01:31:40 PM
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Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

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Originally Posted by I like oldstuff View Post
Nope! half a thou. Slightest skirt drag in the dry bore. Oil it up and there is more drag.
Wow. Never thought you could get away with so little clearance with the aluminum piston expanding more than the cast iron cylinder sleeve. Even if it was a chromed cylinder, never thought that would work. Learn something new every day.

Dave
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  #88  
Old 03-09-2016, 04:09:01 PM
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Default Re: Progress on the Vertical Hone

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Originally Posted by John Tice View Post




ON UTUBE; it’s amazing what you can learn & what may seem foolish to try. On another video it was mentioned that the larger more sophisticated machines used an ammeter to show the power usage. BINGO;





JT,

If that's the main power cord going to the machine, the ammeter will not work connected like that (or at least not accurately). You have to separate the wires out and install the ammeter around just one power wire.

The two pictures I stole off the internet. Notice how in the first picture the wires have been separated. It's just simple lamp cord but you'll get it.

The second picture explains why.

Take care,
Dave
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  #89  
Old 03-16-2016, 08:57:29 AM
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Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

Thank you all for the replies; I’ve been cutting back on the thread because my work load went thru the roof. I need to get my work cleaned up before my customers start to get angry. Any of you who need help send me a PM to www.john@smallenginemachineworks.com
Thanks all
JT
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Old 03-17-2016, 01:18:33 PM
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Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

Thank you for taking the time to share all this.
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Old 03-24-2016, 08:46:14 PM
G.M.Johnson G.M.Johnson is offline
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Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

Well said! Very informative thread, thanks John! I can appreciate what you do as I have done a few sleeve jobs myself, but no where as involved as you are doing. I ended up doing my own sleeving because it was hard to find anyone who really knew how to do a proper sleeve job.
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Old 04-29-2016, 08:57:40 AM
Nelson58 Nelson58 is offline
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Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

This is an amazingly informative post John, covering a lot of different aspects of machine work. Thanks so much for sharing this.

Nels
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  #93  
Old 05-02-2016, 08:40:07 AM
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Default New boring bar stand

New Boring bar table
Most of you readers are hooked on one kind of cycle or another. I’ve been stuck on one kind of machine tool or another; where we all meet in the middle is the power plant. The common denominator is the cylinder in that little old gasoline engine.
Recently I’ve been improving on my cylinder boring stands. The newest model is 20” deep by 60” long. This new model is 1-3/4” thick, ¼” thicker than the smaller ones used in my shop. It’s easier to slide around the 150 pound boring machines without as much worry of pushing one off on the floor or a foot in the way. As you all have made cycle friendships; I’ve got many friends in the machine shop & fabricating business. My Portland Oregon area is large enough that we have many small & large companies in different kinds of machine & metal cutting businesses. The new boring table stand needed a substantial amount of Water Jet cutting. One of our acquaintances is equipped with just the machine that we needed. The table was still a rather spendy item; $700 for the metal cut to size & another $300 for surface grinding the top & bottom sides. $100 for the lengths of 2” square tube for the base.

The new table will hold 3 machines with ease & plenty of room for tools & such

Weight is around 500 lbs so handling with the fork lift is necessary

We are using 3 Kwik Way machines on this particular table with a 4”wide slot for boring multi cylinder blocks & an assortment of smaller round holes for single cylinders.
The base is the same height as earlier models so I can work with while sitting & taking it easy on my bad back.


The new table has nearly full length ½” slots for sliding the hold down’s back & forth


Vincent is on the Fork Lift moving the table across the shop
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  #94  
Old 05-02-2016, 08:42:31 AM
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Default New boring bar stand


Out the loading door & into the cylinder boring room



Off & running; left side is our largest machine, Kwik Way #FN, 2-3/4” & up. Center; Kwik Way #FW 2-1/4” & up. Right side; Kwik Way #FWS 1-3/4” & up.



First job; CR500 cylinder, plenty of room to slide around for positioning

We have an extra FWS machine which will be mounted on one of the smaller stands for sale. The other small stand is in Shop #2 (the garage at the house); this is where I can work on the weekends with no interruptions.

:beer
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  #95  
Old 05-02-2016, 08:01:54 PM
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Smile New boring bar stand

The table top is surface ground parallel on each side. We can slide the machines & the work piece around to the most convenient clamping locations. With the variety of work which we get, this type of custom table is a must.

The thread “How it’s Done” is a tutorial for those who would like to learn the Power Sports cylinder repair trade. I’m passing along tips & ideas as they come to mind. Please feel free to add your own ideas as they come to you. Sadly; our cylinder trade is in desperate need of some new blood. Reed & follow the pages & links; you could be one of our next professionals. We all learn together.


John Tice
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Last edited by John Tice; 05-02-2016 at 08:47:50 PM.
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  #96  
Old 05-02-2016, 09:16:26 PM
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Default Re: New boring bar stand

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Originally Posted by akuna View Post
Just a curious question.

Why spend all the effort and $ to get a nice top to support the machines, and then clamp the cylinder on a 2x2 steel rail?

Or is the cylinder pressed up against the bottom of the top?
Right. They are pressed up against the lower surface with a screw jack.

Here's how the system works with Kwik Way boring bars:
Set your cylinder on the jack mechanism and run the screw up while centering the workload within the reliefs on the table.
The machine spindle is lowered into the bore.
Next a knob is turned on the top of the spindle which pushes three pins out that contact the workload and centers the whole machine to the bore.
Then the machine is locked in place.
the knob is loosened and the spindle is powered up to the stop position.
The locating pins are pushed back in their holes by hand.
The cutting tool is put in the spindle.
Lower the spindle to get the tool below the workload and set the down travel limit stop.
Bring the spindle back up.
A special micrometer is set to the size you want to cut to and snaps into the spindle.
The cutting tool is allowed to contact the mic and locked in place.
Pull the mic out.
Spin the knob to lower the spindle near the workload.
Turn the machine on and engage the feed.
Grab a coffee and watch it cut.

---------- Post added at 08:16:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:57:40 PM ----------

John,
Have you considered air floating those kwik way heads? No matter how much oil I put under mine they sometimes wouldn't locate perfectly. I drilled a 1/8" hole on each lower tableface then intersected it with a hole on each side. To these I connected 3/16 plastic air hoses teed to a supply with a regulator. Adjust the pressure until the slightest finger pressure on the machine will make it move. They'll locate within a couple thou using this method. Lock it down then cut the air. Slicker than.
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  #97  
Old 05-03-2016, 01:09:13 AM
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Smile New boring bar stand

Wow; how long did you say that you worked at the factory? You appear to have written the instruction manual! Don’t be a stranger; we need more like you.

I leave my table top dry & wipe it clean as much as I can. I’ve found when expanding the centering fingers that it’s very helpful to expand contract & rotate the spindle at least 3 times. This is especially helpful if I’m attempting to center in the exhaust port areas on a 2 stroke cylinder. This technique can be used when the pistons are only +.25mm / +.010” oversized when bore clean up is questionable.

Since we now have a vertical power hone, a +.25mm bore increase is better accomplished with our Sunnen hone head instead of boring the cylinder. The hone head seeks the bore average center in the process as it strokes up & down through the cylinder.

If I’d known of your air float trick, we probably would have done the same thing on our table; I may still give it a try.

Thank you for the input
JT
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  #98  
Old 05-03-2016, 06:22:53 PM
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Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

Do the air float, you'll love it. It's a bit scary drilling into your machine tool though! Especially when you do the side intersecting hole. *Squirt some oil in the hoses periodically before you connect them for a super good air seal and float.

Your power hone is a lifesaver but I didn't have one in the dealership. As you know a .25 bore often wouldn't take out the wear or damage in a bore. I would regularly put a .002 feeler gage under a pin to offset the bore fore or aft depending on what side the wear was.

As a bit of minutae, back in the early 70's days of Honda 2 stroke dirt bikes a new cylinder was technically worn past the first OS right out of the box. They were so scared of sticking them the ran the clearances exceedingly large. Including relieving the exhaust bridge by about .020. This caused piston breakage. AHM sent the regional tech guys to see what I was doing as my builds ran well. When I told them my clearances they said I was nuts. Next year all their sizings were published close to mine.
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  #99  
Old 05-07-2016, 11:30:59 PM
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Question More on Skirt Clearances

Let’s back up a page or so & talk about skirt clearances. There is a lot to think about in piston fits, Plate or sleeve. First; it’s commonly thought that a plated cylinder dissipates heat much better; therefore the plated cylinder uses a much tighter cylinder skirt clearance. It’s time to back up another page or so & consider how tight the sleeve is fit into your aluminum cylinder? LA sleeve & Advanced Cylinder Sleeve companies both tell how tight the new sleeve needs to fit, true enough but how is the sleeve fit in your aluminum cylinder?
If you take your top end to your favorite “Hot Shoe” racing cycle shop & have them fit a new ported sleeve; how is your new sleeve fit to your cylinder, knowing how tight is only the start.
At times a cylinder which has been sleeved by others comes to us for repairs. The sleeve was manufactured by one of the previous mentioned companies. The Sleeve was beautifully produced but had a Bum fit. This conversation has nothing to do with the manufacturers mentioned.



This is what our customer got from another “Hot Shoe” rebuilder & tuner. I suspect that the shop knew that the fit was incorrect but was helpless for a repair solution.

Fitting a sleeve is much like fitting a piston; the final honed fit must be precise.

A CR500 Honda cylinder waiting for the new sleeve.

After the precise honed fit has been produced; the press fit which has been previously determined needs to be reconsidered. The sleeve fit helps determine the final piston skirt clearance.

An accurate dial bore gauge is a must in every engine builder’s tool box
The key to this precision fitting business is the coefficient of linier expansion of cast iron & aluminum. When heated to higher temperatures, aluminum expands significantly more than does cast iron. We use 500 degrees for our elevated temperature to insert cylinder sleeves. It’s highly recommended that the machinist measure both the aluminum cylinder & iron sleeve at room temperature & 500 deg. This is the key to figuring the new sleeve’s shrink or press fits. In our shop we use a -.002” for 125’s & smaller, -.003” for 250’s & -.004” for 500cc cylinders. It’s highly recommended that temperature & size measurements are periodically taken. In the process of doing cylinder liner installations; I’ve found that Honda & Yamaha periodically fit sleeves from -.001” to -.0015” press fits. With these looser fits the stock OEM liners can usually be pressed in & out at room temperatures.
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Old 05-07-2016, 11:34:00 PM
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Question More on Skirt Clearances

How do we fit our sleeve installations? We first ruff bore a plated cylinder +.250” larger than the std. bore diameter. This will net the final sleeve thickness of 1mm after the cylinder has been over bored another 2mm oversize. The final sleeve thickness is rather thin but necessary to ensure proper function of any power valve installations. This is the general oversize of sleeve in a 2 stroke bore; we’ve got an Excel spread sheet programmed to produce bore consistency.
Next the new cylinder sleeve is ruff turned to +.010” larger than the aluminum cylinder. With the new sleeve +.010” larger than your cylinder bore; the aluminum cylinder is finally precession honed to the new sleeve press fit. I use this system of fitting the new sleeve as it helps greatly if making a mistake fit.
With all of these dimensions flying around in every direction; it’s necessary for the engine builder to have a thorough knowledge of arithmetic & geometry. Have a few hand calculators in your shop for handy instant access. Remember that 4”/ .03937 = 101.6mm, the conversion factor from inches to millimeters.

After the cylinder is heated, the new sleeve is lowered & alined. A light press is applied to the top of the sleeve to make sure it’s bedded in place.



After the final bore is completed, off to the cylinder hone. We use a Sunnen connecting rod hone as it gives the best control of cylinder sizing. Yes; you need the proper piston skirt clearance, but as of the clearance the cylinder must also be round & straight. Squaring with the bore is best accomplished by mounting a cylinder upside down. (More on this in other sections)
I use a double stone three point connecting rod mandrel for cylinders under 2-1/2” in bore diameter. Above 2-1/2” a double stone “AN” type of mandrel is used. Both of these mandrels render a smooth round & straight bore when used by a skilled operator.


Large hone type “AN” head for bores larger tan 2-1/2”


Smaller 3 point mandrel used for cylinders less than 2-1/2”.
You may notice the cylinder hanging by a couple of Bungee cords. With my bad back as many of us suffer from; the cylinders are hanging from the ceiling which enables the cylinder to be flipped from end to end, taper control & easy measurements.
(Other types of honing equipment are noted in another section.)

Back to the Skirt clearances; I use the resources of Wiesco piston who has a cycle engine mounted on a Dyno for testing skirt clearances. Wiesco claims that their forged pistons are machined in such a manner that they need barely more than a zero skirt clearance to run without seizing. Granted this is only for testing purposes.
I’ve found that the recommended skirt clearances which are printed on each Wiesco piston box; works fine for most cast & forged 2 stroke pistons. With the very short skirts on late model 4 stroke engines, it’s wise to contact the particular piston manufacturer for clearance advice. Now days both types of pistons are machined to run minimal skirt clearances. After the honing is complete the ports are deburred & the cylinder is rinsed in the parts washer. The measuring tools are rechecked for accuracy; the skirt clearance is double checked, the piston is fit, top & bottom of the cylinder. Any discrepancy in accuracy can be corrected before the job is delivered.
Cast or forged pistons; sleeved or plated bores, when we hone the final skirt clearance; I most always add +.0005” to the recommended fits. With this slight addition to the clearance; I maintain that both types of cylinders each have close to the same heat dissipation rate.

You’re comments & criticism is more than welcome; we all learn together.

John Tice
503-593-2908 Alternate 541-508-3944
www.smallenginemachineworks.com & www.nwsleeve.com
Turning Custom Cylinder Sleeves Since 1971
http://forums.everything2stroke.com/...d-the-Shop.com
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