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Antique Steel Wheel Tractors - Old Iron Lugs and Cleats

Twin City 20-35 "Canadian"


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  #241  
Old 12-22-2018, 02:15:07 PM
Mark Schneider Mark Schneider is offline
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Default Re: Twin City 20-35 "Canadian"

Duey...The arbor speed on the Ames is quite slow and I made multiple passes as the drive belt set up will slip if the cut is too aggressive. About 50 thou a pass worked well...when I finished the shaft was barely warm.
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  #242  
Old 12-23-2018, 01:05:52 AM
Duey C Duey C is offline
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Default Re: Twin City 20-35 "Canadian"

Very cool. I was stunned at the 50 thou per pass cuts but I get it better now. : - )
Have you fitted it together?
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  #243  
Old 12-27-2018, 11:06:35 PM
Mark Schneider Mark Schneider is offline
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Default Re: Twin City 20-35 "Canadian"

Working on setting up the primary bevel gears.

1. For those who haven't been exposed this is the classic Hyatt bearing set up. This was the cutting edge of bearing technology in the teens and twenties. The large roller takes up the side load while the radial ball bearing handles the end thrust. This was a big improvement over babbitt and straight roller bearings. When the Timken tapered roller bearing was introduced the bearing quills could be preloaded for zero end play and this obsoleted the Hyatt design.

2. As is my tendency I replaced the felt wiper on the input shaft with a modern lip seal.

3. The Hyatt bearing system uses the tendency of gearsets to push each other apart to take the slack out of the bearing quill... but in one direction only. If the shaft is pushed the opposite direction it simply comes out of the quill. I made this collar and set screw to keep the assembly together on the numerous trips on and off to set up the gear tooth depth.

4. There is another Hyatt bearing assembly in this quill for the belt pulley shaft. The end thrust from the driven bevel gear is absorbed here. The gearset backlash is adjusted by paper gaskets between the quill and the case. The backlash can only be approximated at this time as the input shaft has to be supported by the flywheel pilot bearing before the final check is made.
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  #244  
Old 12-30-2018, 09:14:38 AM
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Eric Best Eric Best is offline
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Default Re: Twin City 20-35 "Canadian"

All of my Hyatt bearings on my 20-35 were pretty tired. I made sleeves and spacers and except for the differential and outer ends of the rear axle, all hyatt bearings have been replaced with ball bearings. Smooth as glass now.
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  #245  
Old 12-30-2018, 05:23:22 PM
Mark Schneider Mark Schneider is offline
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Default Re: Twin City 20-35 "Canadian"

Eric...Did you retain the ball thrust bearings on the input and belt pulley shafts or are you letting the new ball bearings absorb the end thrust by themselves?
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  #246  
Old 03-03-2019, 06:13:43 PM
Mark Schneider Mark Schneider is offline
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Default Re: Twin City 20-35 "Canadian"

I ran into a rather unusual situation on the transmission of the 20-35. I had reinstalled the shifter rails, forks, and shift lever assembly which was a rather straight forward reassembly. When I was shifting through the gears I noticed that when in reverse the sliding gear was precariously close to the newly installed bevel shaft. I set up a dial indicator and found that the maximum clearance between the gears was only .045"...not good!

As explained in post#243 the Hyatt roller and ball thrust bearing assembly controls loaded shaft movement in one direction only. The over center clutch engagement and bevel gear forward thrust are absorbed by the radial ball thrust bearing and all is well. However when the throw out fork is pulled back to release the clutch the bevel gear shaft will be pulled back also until the clutch brake engages. If the shaft moves back more than .045" the bevel gear and the reverse slider will hit each other. So it appears that the only thing that controls the rearward lateral movement of the bevel gear shaft is the thickness of clutch brake lining!

As this lining was shot I checked to see if maybe the old bevel gear shaft showed signs of hitting the reverse slider. Sure enough the ends of the teeth were shined up on the bevel gear and a wear pattern could be seen on the reverse slider. As I don't want the new gear to hit I'll be giving some thought on how to remedy the situation.

1. Clutch schematic.
2. Wore out clutch brake lining.
3. Tight fit of the bevel shaft and reverse slider gears.
4. Old bevel shaft gear that shows shined up teeth from rubbing on the reverse slider gear.
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Last edited by Mark Schneider; 03-05-2019 at 12:10:30 AM.
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  #247  
Old 03-10-2019, 01:24:27 AM
Duey C Duey C is offline
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Default Re: Twin City 20-35 "Canadian"

Sorry to bump. Thank you for bringing this up.
I looked at the clutch schematic pic again and finally saw what I needed to see on your 20-35. All parts must be up to snuff when disengaging to prevent too much lateral movement.
Are we just supposed to move the belt pulley shaft’s bevel closer so the input power shaft bevel isn't allowed to go back that far to rub the reverse gear?
Does every Twin Cam growl at us when disengaging? Yikes.

Both of these two 17-28‘s growl at me when I tap that pedal to disengage their clutches. Just bevels hollering or gears rubbing?
Haven’t looked at these here... I don’t like the growl so I do it quickly thus far.
The Borg and Beck for 12-20 up to #12099 has shoulders and ball units fore and aft on the shaft for this I see yet no clutch brake.

21-32 owners manual from ‘36 shows a pressed-on ball unit to limit both fore and aft movement to within the ball bearing unit.
Haven’t checked this one here yet I need more info to see.

Interesting things.
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  #248  
Old 03-10-2019, 04:02:47 PM
Mark Schneider Mark Schneider is offline
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Default Re: Twin City 20-35 "Canadian"

Duey...I never paid attention to the gear clearance issue on my 17-28. However on that one I replaced the wore out Hyatt roller bearing with a press fit ball bearing replacement so lateral shaft movement is not an issue. The gear interference issue on my 20-35 only happens when the transmission is shifted in reverse which moves the reverse slider directly behind the input shaft bevel gear. I know that while the 20-35 and 17-28 transmissions are similar in design there are differences...especially in removal of the belt pulley shaft. On the 17-28 this job is very difficult...well OK then...impossible as I don't know of anyone that has been able to successfully extract one. This shaft practically falls out of the Big Twin Cam transmission case.

If the growling noise happens in every gear on clutch disengagement it is probably the bevel gears being pushed into a no backlash situation. Still it would be best to take a look...not a difficult job on the Twin Cams.

It appears that the gear interference issue on this tractor was probably a problem in the past. If you study the picture of the old input shaft bevel gear in my last post you see that some of the teeth are actually chipped because of it. This could explain the use of 4 gaskets on the input shaft bearing quill. However with the input shaft moved forward this far the gear contact was only on the outer 2/3rds of the teeth which was probably a factor in the demise of the original bevel gear set. To get the gear contact I wanted I had to bolt the quill to the transmission case with no gaskets period.

To remedy the situation I chucked the input shaft in the lathe and used the angle grinder to remove .125" from the backside of the gear teeth. Not a high tech solution to be sure. Upon reinstallation I found that at .000" of backlash I now have about 1/32" of clearance between the reverse slider and input shaft bevel gear. I'm confident the two gears will never touch but I may have a "growler" when I disengage the clutch!

1. New input shaft bevel gear.
2. Same gear after grinding.
3. Minimum gear to gear clearance of about 1/32" now.
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  #249  
Old 03-13-2019, 11:03:21 AM
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Default Re: Twin City 20-35 "Canadian"

Mark - you asked about the input and pulley shafts. I did replace those with ball bearings. I can’t remember where I used double row vs angular contact but I did go through the thrust specs in my bearing book and was able to meet or exceed the original values where I could find them. Appealed to my own crude calculations where I couldn’t obtain info on the original thrust. I guess we will see how it holds up.
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  #250  
Old 03-24-2019, 10:08:50 PM
Mark Schneider Mark Schneider is offline
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Default Re: Twin City 20-35 "Canadian"

Moved on to some Twin Disc clutch issues that needed to be addressed. Usually the 6 pin clutch doesn't give much trouble on the Big Twin Cams compared to the 3 pin variety used on the smaller tractors. However the holes in the driving plates were quite oversize with a fair amount of wear on the pins themselves. I knew it would be noisy if I left them as is and not wanting to get into competition with Russ Hamm on who had the noisiest TC clutch I decided to do something about it now.

1. Drive pin removal from the very heavy flywheel. (Am I getting old or what?)
2. Egged out holes on the driving plates.
3. Original driving pin diameter is 3/4". I decided to shave one down to 11/16" to see if I would gain anything. It was a substantial improvement. I found that the pins are hardened and it worked best to use a carbide lathe bit.
4. The full set turned down. The small wear areas left can be faced toward the center of the flywheel and shouldn't have a negative affect on clutch operation.
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  #251  
Old 03-26-2019, 09:57:09 AM
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Default Re: Twin City 20-35 "Canadian"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider View Post
I knew it would be noisy if I left them as is and not wanting to get into competition with Russ Hamm on who had the noisiest TC clutch I decided to do something about it .
When I plowed with the FTA last summer half the township thought it was time for church and the other half thought there was a fire.
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  #252  
Old 03-28-2019, 12:09:01 AM
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Default Re: Twin City 20-35 "Canadian"

Ask not for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
A little Earnest, John and Murdoc all mixed.
I yearn for the ring.
Too cool.
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