Antique Engines and Old Iron
[Home] - [HELP] - [Forums] - [Groups] - [Classified Ads] - [Subscribe] - [Books] - [Sponsors] -

Go Back   SmokStak > SmokStak® Antique Engine Community > Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion
Forgot Password? Join Us!

Notices

Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion Meet collectors of hit and miss engines, ask questions about collecting, restoring and showing antique flywheel engines.

Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion

Pierce Inverted Twin, surface carburetor


this thread has 37 replies and has been viewed 2510 times

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-04-2019, 03:15:02 PM
J.B. Castagnos J.B. Castagnos is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: South Louisiana USA
Posts: 2,738
Thanks: 930
Thanked 3,590 Times in 1,126 Posts
Default Pierce Inverted Twin, surface carburetor

I have a Pierce inverted twin, it came with the wrong carburetor, aluminum pistons, spark plugs and a Model T timer. I now have cast iron pistons, piston trip ignitors and battery savers in place of the timer. I can account for 8 of these twins, none has the original carburetor. The singles used a surface carburetor, the early twins have the same double inlet valve cage. The only ad I've seen shows two sets of intake plumbing, I'm fairly certain this was for the surface carburetor system. Reading about surface carburetors it says that nearly all carburetors before 1902 were of the surface evaporation type, a spray carburetor was rarely seen. By 1904 the surface carburetor was obsolete. The Schebler carbs have a 1902 pat date, supporting this. My friend Jim has a single and has rI have a Pierce inverted twin, it came with the wrong carburetor, aluminum pistons, spark plugs and a Model T timer. I now have cast iron pistons, piston trip ignitors and battery savers in place of the timer. I can account for 8 of these twins, none has the original carburetor. The singles used a surface carburetor, the early twins have the same double inlet valve cage. The only ad I've seen shows two sets of intake plumbing, I'm fairly certain this was for the surface carburetor system. Reading about surface carburetors it says that nearly all carburetors before 1902 were of the surface evaporation type, a spray carburetor was rarely seen. By 1904 the surface carburetor was obsolete. The Schebler carbs have a 1902 pat date, supporting this. My friend Jim has a single and made an excellent pattern for the carburetor, a large cast iron box, he had one cast for me. I have the engine plumbed with the two mixture valves, working on the carb now. I hope to have it running at Portland.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	pierce plumbing1.JPG
Views:	191
Size:	107.6 KB
ID:	340760   Click image for larger version

Name:	pieerce plumbing2.JPG
Views:	225
Size:	108.5 KB
ID:	340761   Click image for larger version

Name:	pierce picture 4.jpg
Views:	183
Size:	244.9 KB
ID:	340764   Click image for larger version

Name:	racine pierce ad 2 001.jpg
Views:	141
Size:	169.5 KB
ID:	340765  
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 08-04-2019, 09:42:26 PM
J.B. Castagnos J.B. Castagnos is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: South Louisiana USA
Posts: 2,738
Thanks: 930
Thanked 3,590 Times in 1,126 Posts
Default Re: Pierce inverted twin, surface carburetor

Don Selmer, looking at old post I saw that you have a single with the surface carburetor, have you ever tried to run it?
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to J.B. Castagnos For This Post:
  #3  
Old 08-04-2019, 10:10:49 PM
Dwayne Fuller's Avatar
Dwayne Fuller Dwayne Fuller is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Longview, Texas, USA
Posts: 2,257
Thanks: 3,460
Thanked 3,662 Times in 1,094 Posts
Default Re: Pierce inverted twin, surface carburetor

If you get yours running good on that set up we will have to do retro fit on mine. Always wondered what that surface carb looked like. See you at Portland.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Dwayne Fuller For This Post:
  #4  
Old 08-04-2019, 10:48:35 PM
Marv in Minn's Avatar
Marv in Minn Marv in Minn is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Sauk Rapids, Minnesota, USA
Posts: 616
Thanks: 2,553
Thanked 2,495 Times in 471 Posts
Default Re: Pierce inverted twin, surface carburetor

just a couple of Pierce pics in my computer
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	pierce.jpg
Views:	149
Size:	184.9 KB
ID:	340785   Click image for larger version

Name:	piercefarm1.jpg
Views:	92
Size:	127.0 KB
ID:	340786  
__________________
restoring old iron, hot air engines and modelmaker.
Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Marv in Minn For This Post:
  #5  
Old 08-05-2019, 12:32:43 AM
Lester Bowman Lester Bowman is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Modesto, California
Posts: 1,155
Thanks: 2,146
Thanked 2,348 Times in 682 Posts
Default Re: Pierce inverted twin, surface carburetor

Hi JB

Search D S Regan fuel vaporizer here on Harry's. For some reason it won'y allow me to provide a link. It has some useful information you will find helpful.

Last edited by Lester Bowman; 08-05-2019 at 12:44:10 AM. Reason: .
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Lester Bowman For This Post:
  #6  
Old 08-05-2019, 04:39:05 AM
Don Selmer Don Selmer is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Cottage Grove, Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 1,837
Thanks: 5,688
Thanked 3,785 Times in 981 Posts
Default Re: Pierce inverted twin, surface carburetor

J.B. I sent you a PM
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Don Selmer For This Post:
  #7  
Old 08-05-2019, 07:49:38 AM
Don Selmer Don Selmer is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Cottage Grove, Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 1,837
Thanks: 5,688
Thanked 3,785 Times in 981 Posts
Default Re: Pierce inverted twin, surface carburetor

J.B. I sent another PM with some contact infomation.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Don Selmer For This Post:
  #8  
Old 08-05-2019, 10:02:00 PM
J.B. Castagnos J.B. Castagnos is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: South Louisiana USA
Posts: 2,738
Thanks: 930
Thanked 3,590 Times in 1,126 Posts
Default Re: Pierce inverted twin, surface carburetor

I faced off the box and lid, drilled and tapped for screws and pipe fittings, just need the fuel line hole.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	pierce srface carb.JPG
Views:	84
Size:	92.2 KB
ID:	340858  
Reply With Quote
The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to J.B. Castagnos For This Post:
  #9  
Old 08-07-2019, 04:14:53 PM
NAR's Avatar
NAR NAR is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: New Washington, Ohio
Posts: 520
Thanks: 749
Thanked 1,605 Times in 313 Posts
Default Re: Pierce inverted twin, surface carburetor

J.B., that V-twin Pierce you have is really looking nice & it’ll no doubt look amazing when you get it finished. It's also neat you’re putting it back to the surface vapor carburetor. Sorry I don’t have any ads or anything that show the V-twin other than what you already have. I’d guess same as you, that it most likely had the vapor carb.


My dad’s Kowlasky Force & Briggs engine uses a vapor carb just like the Pierce engines use. See pics below.

It’s an extremely good starting & running engine & the fuel mixture is easy to control. We run this engine a lot & it still has fuel in its vapor carb box from a couple years ago.

The first time my dad took the Force & Briggs engine to a show I wanted to make sure that the surface vapor carburetor was safe enough from back-fires & any explosions so I set the engine outside on a hot sunny day, high 90’s, no wind, & let it sit in the sun until the top of the carb was too hot to touch, then I started the engine & ran it about an hour, backing-kicking it, playing with the fuel mixture & ignition & backfiring the engine into the intake & did about everything I could other than stick a torch down into the vapor carb, & I could not get any explosions from the vapor carb itself. It seemed safe enough to show & we’ve never had any trouble with it. I had heard people saying they were dangerous so I just wanted to check.

Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	0a F&B.jpg
Views:	67
Size:	115.0 KB
ID:	340972   Click image for larger version

Name:	0b F&B vapor carb.jpg
Views:	64
Size:	130.6 KB
ID:	340973   Click image for larger version

Name:	0c F&B.jpg
Views:	65
Size:	124.6 KB
ID:	340974   Click image for larger version

Name:	0d surface carb compare, pierc force & briggs HD.jpg
Views:	57
Size:	166.8 KB
ID:	340975  
__________________
http://rowland24.20megsfree.com
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-07-2019, 04:30:44 PM
J.B. Castagnos J.B. Castagnos is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: South Louisiana USA
Posts: 2,738
Thanks: 930
Thanked 3,590 Times in 1,126 Posts
Default Re: Pierce inverted twin, surface carburetor

Thanks Nick, what fuel do you run in it, reading about vapor carbs it says they used a gasoline with a .68 specific gravity, modern gas seems to be .71, I can get natural gasoline or drip gas as it's called locally, condensate from the gas pipelines. Problems mentioned were frequent fires, light end vapors boiling off if not kept capped, and failure to run because there were no vapors. It looks like your engine has two check valves and an atmospheric intake, this should help backfires from reaching the carb.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to J.B. Castagnos For This Post:
  #11  
Old 08-07-2019, 05:22:12 PM
NAR's Avatar
NAR NAR is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: New Washington, Ohio
Posts: 520
Thanks: 749
Thanked 1,605 Times in 313 Posts
Default Re: Pierce inverted twin, surface carburetor

J.B., we just use regular 87 octane gasoline in it, the same fuel I use in my model engine vapor carbs. I’ve been using vapor carbs with my models since the early 1990’s & have played around with a lot of designs. With glass jar surface vapor carbs you can really see what the fuel is doing. Clear fuel seems to be best/the freshest. It turns dark yellow in the jars when sitting out in the sun & when getting old. The fuel looks milky or layered when there is a lot of alcohol in it, & probably when it’s absorbing water from the air. Regular gasoline varies a lot from gas station to gas station & I’ve had to try different gas stations before to find one with fresh fuel.

The year we had the Force & Briggs engine at Portland I think my dad did add fuel to the surface vapor carb box once because the engine ran all week there. Even when the carb was low on fuel & lost a lot of its fumes we didn’t have trouble with backfires or anything; the engine just didn’t coast as long as it had. When we're not running it we just stick a cork in the air intake pipe so fumes don't leak out.

-Nick

---------- Post added at 05:22:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:58:19 PM ----------

Lester mentioned the D. S. Regan surface vapor carb & a link to the patent is below. It was an early one although vapor carbs were used on engines many years before that.

Regan vaporizer patent #415,978
https://pdfpiw.uspto.gov/.piw?PageNu...3DPN%2F0415978

Barrett vaporizer patent #434,695
https://patentimages.storage.googlea...0/US434695.pdf


Here’s some notes I put together years ago on possibly how Kowalsky’s “Pittsburg” Force & Briggs engines got their vapor carb ideas from (if Kowalsky passed through or worked at Racine, Wisconsin or Chicago on his way to PA). Kowalsky is listed as living in Peoria, IL in 1896. About 1898 Kowalsky moves to Pittsburgh.

-It looks like early Regan’s used a rounded surface vapor carb while the Pacific engines used more of the box style vapor carbs.

-In Feb 1890, "the Regan Vapor Engine Company" of San Francisco, contracted with "Thomas Kane & Company" of Chicago to manufacture "Regan Vapor Engines" at Kane's factory in Racine, Wisconsin. These were marketed as "Kane Electro-Vapor Engines".

-Thomas Kane owned controlling interest in "the Racine Hardware Manufacturing Company" of Racine, Wisconsin, the largest boat builders in the United States.

-In September 1890, Daniel S. Regan travelled to Racine, Wisconsin to insure that the production of the Regan engines was progressing satisfactorily, meeting with Andrew J. Pierce, superintendent of "the Racine Hardware Manufacturing Company's" engine department, and responsible for manufacturing the Regan engines.

-In 1893, Andrew Pierce organized "The Racine Gas Engine Company" of Racine, Wisconsin.

-Production of the Regan Electro-Vapor Engines by "the Racine Hardware Manufacturing Company" ended in 1895.
__________________
http://rowland24.20megsfree.com
Reply With Quote
The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to NAR For This Post:
  #12  
Old 08-07-2019, 05:47:43 PM
NAR's Avatar
NAR NAR is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: New Washington, Ohio
Posts: 520
Thanks: 749
Thanked 1,605 Times in 313 Posts
Default Re: Pierce inverted twin, surface carburetor

Before I knew Jim Fehl made extremely nice reproduction surface carbs, I scaled dimensions for one off literature for the Force & Briggs engine, see the first picture below. I used known dimensions of the engine to fill in the blanks of the surface carb dimenisons.

Later after talking with Jim, he was kind enough to give me dimensions of his carburetors, & all dimensions I had from scaling the picture in the literature were good except one which was off on about 3/8”. It was definitely the same vapor carb as used on the Pierce engines. After that I made wood patterns & had it cast in iron. I made the tin divider insert & also put the hanging strings/rag in the carb like the original. From what I was told I guess there’s at least one original surface box carb in existence on a single cylinder Pierce?

The literature I have for the Force & Briggs vapor carb also has a diagram on it of a back-fire/explosion pressure safety relief valve. I scaled this on cad & then made a copy for our F&B engine. See last picture

My dad has an 1895 inverted V-4 hit & miss that also takes one of these vapor carbs & I’ll probably made another for it.

-Nick
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	1a cad scaling.jpg
Views:	68
Size:	107.9 KB
ID:	340980   Click image for larger version

Name:	1b carb patterns.jpg
Views:	71
Size:	95.3 KB
ID:	340981   Click image for larger version

Name:	1c carb patterns.jpg
Views:	70
Size:	97.0 KB
ID:	340982   Click image for larger version

Name:	2a carb tin insert.jpg
Views:	104
Size:	142.5 KB
ID:	340983   Click image for larger version

Name:	2b carb & tin insert.jpg
Views:	78
Size:	148.5 KB
ID:	340984   Click image for larger version

Name:	2c compare2 (2) HD.jpg
Views:	84
Size:	128.4 KB
ID:	340985  
__________________
http://rowland24.20megsfree.com
Reply With Quote
The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to NAR For This Post:
  #13  
Old 08-07-2019, 06:10:04 PM
NAR's Avatar
NAR NAR is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: New Washington, Ohio
Posts: 520
Thanks: 749
Thanked 1,605 Times in 313 Posts
Default Re: Pierce inverted twin, surface carburetor

There are a few engines that share governor designs similar to the Pierce engines. The 2nd picture below shows a Pierce engine governor, left, compared to the same tear-drop governor weights of the Force & Briggs engine, right.

The 3rd picture shows the long rocker arm of an inverted Pierce, compared to the long rocker arm used on F&B engines. The two makes are definitely related somehow.

The other pictures show fuel line plumbing arrangements used on the Force & Briggs engines. The one shows a gasometer hooked up to the engine along with the original gasometer that came with our engine. Were any Pierce engines sold with these too?

-Nick
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	3a F&B carb.jpg
Views:	64
Size:	119.8 KB
ID:	340986   Click image for larger version

Name:	3b pierce F&B governor compare.jpg
Views:	64
Size:	177.0 KB
ID:	340987   Click image for larger version

Name:	3c pierce F&B rocker compare.jpg
Views:	53
Size:	159.9 KB
ID:	340988   Click image for larger version

Name:	3d gasoline engine (2) HD.jpg
Views:	50
Size:	138.6 KB
ID:	340989   Click image for larger version

Name:	3e.jpg
Views:	54
Size:	195.0 KB
ID:	340990   Click image for larger version

Name:	3f Pierce1 (3)fixed HD.jpg
Views:	49
Size:	240.9 KB
ID:	340991  
__________________
http://rowland24.20megsfree.com
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-07-2019, 06:41:36 PM
J.B. Castagnos J.B. Castagnos is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: South Louisiana USA
Posts: 2,738
Thanks: 930
Thanked 3,590 Times in 1,126 Posts
Default Re: Pierce inverted twin, surface carburetor

Great information Nick, thanks for sharing it. Hope to see you in Portland.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to J.B. Castagnos For This Post:
  #15  
Old 08-08-2019, 06:51:09 AM
Gemmer1 Gemmer1 is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Salem, New York
Posts: 79
Thanks: 1,527
Thanked 172 Times in 48 Posts
Default Re: Pierce inverted twin, surface carburetor

Fantastic work Nick! And great information!

Jim
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Gemmer1 For This Post:
  #16  
Old 08-08-2019, 07:01:04 AM
NAR's Avatar
NAR NAR is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: New Washington, Ohio
Posts: 520
Thanks: 749
Thanked 1,605 Times in 313 Posts
Default Re: Pierce inverted twin, surface carburetor

J.B., on the V-twin Pierce boat/marine engines possibly using a surface vapor carburetor; attached is an old line drawing of a Regan marine engine in a boat using a vapor carb. These types of carbs were probably used in about any application, whether safe/practical or not.

-Nick
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	regan in boat with surface carb HD.jpg
Views:	54
Size:	123.4 KB
ID:	341008  
__________________
http://rowland24.20megsfree.com
Reply With Quote
The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to NAR For This Post:
  #17  
Old 08-08-2019, 08:30:36 AM
Bill Hazzard Bill Hazzard is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Pennsylvania USA
Posts: 2,178
Thanks: 3,946
Thanked 4,721 Times in 1,214 Posts
Default Re: Pierce inverted twin, surface carburetor

Surface carburetors were used since the 1860's for gasoline lighting of homes.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Bill Hazzard For This Post:
  #18  
Old 08-08-2019, 05:26:57 PM
Bill Hazzard Bill Hazzard is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Pennsylvania USA
Posts: 2,178
Thanks: 3,946
Thanked 4,721 Times in 1,214 Posts
Default Re: Pierce inverted twin, surface carburetor

Do any of the smaller Pierce engines have a pipe and some kind of plug in the bottom of the cylinder? I am working on a 2 HP engine and has this pipe in the bottom and I am not sure what it was supposed to look like.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_2952.jpg
Views:	54
Size:	126.0 KB
ID:	341027   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_2957.jpg
Views:	65
Size:	132.6 KB
ID:	341028   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_1253.jpg
Views:	90
Size:	237.5 KB
ID:	341029  
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Bill Hazzard For This Post:
  #19  
Old 08-08-2019, 07:59:12 PM
Gemmer1 Gemmer1 is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Salem, New York
Posts: 79
Thanks: 1,527
Thanked 172 Times in 48 Posts
Default Re: Pierce inverted twin, surface carburetor

Bill, If that piece of pipe (1st picture) is centered on the bottom of the engine base it probably only goes into the water jacket. At least all the 3/4 and 1 HP engines I have seen had only a flush pipe plug with a square recess for a wrench. I think it was mainly used to clean out the core sand after casting.

What is the second picture??

This is the first 2HP Pierce single cylinder engine I have ever seen, only catalog engravings of them. Nice!

Jim
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 08-08-2019, 08:46:35 PM
Bill Hazzard Bill Hazzard is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Pennsylvania USA
Posts: 2,178
Thanks: 3,946
Thanked 4,721 Times in 1,214 Posts
Default Re: Pierce inverted twin, surface carburetor

Jim, the second picture is looking down the bore which shows an odd plug. Both top and bottom look to be a plug on the inside of a pipe. There are two 2 HP engines that I know of, this one and one at the Henry Ford Museum.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Bill Hazzard For This Post:
Reply

Bookmarks


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

F o r u m Jump

Similar Threads Chosen at Random
Thread Thread Starter F o r u m Replies Last Post
Casting of Pierce Surface Carburetors Gemmer1 Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion 7 08-18-2019 08:35:24 AM
Inverted Pierce #2 J.B. Castagnos Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion 1 04-26-2015 08:29:29 PM
Pierce inverted twin J.B. Castagnos Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion 8 03-02-2014 07:27:12 PM
Circa 1895 Inverted pierce Mike O Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion 22 06-28-2009 10:26:53 AM
Pierce inverted engine Ray Webb Antique Engine Archives 9 01-07-2003 02:19:36 AM


Use "Ctrl" mouse wheel to change screen size.
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:52:13 PM.

Smokstak and Enginads site search!


All use is subject to our TERMS OF SERVICE
SMOKSTAK® is a Registered Trade Mark - A Community of Antique Engine Enthusiasts
Copyright © 2000 - 2019 by Harry Matthews P.O. Box 5612 - Sarasota, FL 34277