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Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY


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  #21  
Old 07-25-2008, 11:25:56 PM
Butch Howe Butch Howe is online now
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Default Re: Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY

Rene, I believe there is a Linn tractor up Rt 88 from you in Richmondville. He takes it to the show in Schoharie. Can't remember the fellows name.
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  #22  
Old 07-26-2008, 04:38:53 PM
Rene Elliott Rene Elliott is offline
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Default Re: Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY

Charles Bilby, he has the largest collection of Linn tractors, and is an excellent restorer but unfortunatly can't devote 100% of his time to the Linns, although now he has a former Town of Richmondville Linn that is his next project, I've been encouraging him to do one of the two side dumpers he has the remains of. He was supposed to take the most recent one to the Shutters Corners/Gallupville show but didn't make it, he usually has it there the second weekend. Hopefully they will have the new bridge in by next year, the detour is barely more than one vehicle wide.
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  #23  
Old 07-26-2008, 07:57:30 PM
loggah loggah is offline
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Default Re: Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY

Terry, the early "T" head wisconsins used in the lombard tractor was a model "PT" 5 3/4" bore and 7" stroke , 100 HP at 1000 r.p.m., the later overhead valve wisconsin engine used was a model D-4 5 3/4" bore and 6 1/2" stroke rated at 125 HP at 1200 r.p.m., i have one of each for my 2 gas lombards. Both of my machines came from the Lacroix operation that were Abandoned at Churchill Depot .Don
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Old 07-27-2008, 05:17:23 PM
tharper tharper is offline
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Default Re: Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY

Thank you Don,

I sent you an e-mail. I may have some vintage photos of your Lombards. I have one with six tractors, drivers and a model 'T' Ford all posing in front of the garage at Churchill. Unfortunatly we are looking at the rear of them!

I know No. 8 supposedly had the 125hp engine installed after it went swimming in Long Lake. In addition to yours The only other 125hp I know of is in the museum in Ashland.

I know in 1963 No. 9 & 10 were still in the shed with several others that I don't have numbers for.

Again, thanks for the info.

Best regards,

Terry Harper
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  #25  
Old 07-28-2008, 08:23:25 AM
Rene Elliott Rene Elliott is offline
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Default Re: Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY

Is there anyway by looking at the number of exhaust stacks to tell what engine the Lombard had? I was assuming the larger Wisconsin was the one with one stack per pair of cylinders?
Some time ago I saw in a book on Trudo/Stewaicke, Glace Bay, Nova Scotia area history a photo and story of a gas Lombard, with multiple stacks, that was gotten out of storage after WW2 to move some heavy equipment in winter. My sister visited a museum in a lighthouse up in Quebec on the St. Lawrence that had a wooden model of what was probably a Lombard log hauler, but they didn't understand Quebecois French well enough to learn much about it from the guide.
I only know of four gas Lombards used in Upstate NY, by logging contractor T.C. Williams of Partlow, all of them single stack, two with single fastener on the radiator cap, two with a pair of fasteners on the sides. (The Tupper Lake, NY library website and Adirondack Museum have some photos of these). Two of these were junked over in Tug Hill, Rick Breton bought the carb for his Wisconsin from one of these, that the man who hauled them kept as a souvenir. The other had it's big Wisconsin 6 cyl. put in a sawmill, and one cold morning a guy told about seeing a line of man standing outside the door hanging onto a rope, he stopped out of curiousity and learned they were pulling the engine crank over. No idea what became of the other two.
The one steam Lombard used in NY (Adirondacks between Old Forge and Hinckley), we are still trying to learn details on, a man claimed it was junked in the mid-1920s and replaced with Linns. There is some speculation that a Pheonix steamer may have been used up at Benson Mines, NY but no confirmation on that. They also supposedly had one of the largest Case steam traction engines ever built over to Belfort or Benson Mines, no details on that either, but a wonder they would have had bridges strong enough to support it.
Forgot to mention Breton also has a Model T Lombard, with gear rack dump body, powered by a YXC2 Hercules 6 cyl., slightly smaller than the YXC3 (478 CID) in my C6 Catruk.
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Old 07-28-2008, 01:05:16 PM
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Default Re: Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY

Hello Rene,

Stacks and configuration are not a reliable indicator as to the engine. The quickest way is by the radiator height. As pointed out by Don the 125hp engine required a taller radiator as the Breton ex-Starbird tractor has and the tractor in the Ashland Museum. As delievered there was a rounded sheet metal fairing covering the radiator hose as it exited through the hood and into the header tank. (see attached)


Some were delivered from the factory with a big single exhaust pipe dumping underneath the rear of the engine. (talk about getting gassed!) One photo shows 6 so configured awaiting delivery to Lacroix.

Others had a single pipe exiting upward just in front of the windshield. While still others had the 3 vertical pipes through the hood. I have seen photos of one with exhaust stubs exiting out through the side of the hood! This tractor had an open cab and aparently the upright exhaust knocked the snow off of the trees.

The 'PT' 100HP engine has the exhaust manifold on the left (drivers side) and terminates at the rear. While the D-4 manifold is on the right side.

I suspect that that these big heavy manifold was prone to cracking over the years (big rigid mounted engine - lots of vibration) thus the 3 stack configuration which seems the most prevalent.

Cabs are another variable. As delivered Lacroix's were narrow. However, latter on many ended up with full width cabs. I have photos of one owned by Lacroix that was all steel and extra long. Again these got a lot of abuse as witnessed by all the stay rods and brackets cobbled together over the years to hold then together. At least two photos show one tractor with the whole drivers side bashed-off. I have photos of No. 6 as delievered with the narrow cab. Now it has the wide cab.

Another variable is the fuel tanks. Most of Lacroix's tractors had duel fuel tanks. In the narrow cab configuration one was mounted beside the cab as standard factory practice while the other was mounted on the rear platform. Wide cab tractors had both tanks mounted on the rear deck at the same level.

Some of these tractors had a long service life. Lacroix purchased his first batch of Lombards in 1924. Lacroix's Lombard operations in Maine all but ended after the 1932-33 hauling season. Thats nine years of hard service.

Best regards,

Terry
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Old 07-28-2008, 06:13:53 PM
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Default Re: Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY

The early lombards with the lombard engines had a seperate stack for each cylinder,the ones with six stacks being the six cylinder naturally , the ones with the brass radiators and single exhaust that went down under the engine had sterling,or van blerke engines, the wisconsin "PT" engines originally had a single exhaust through the hood right by the drivers window,but because of the long space between cylinder pairs, and uneven heating and cooling were prone to cracking the cast iron manifolds, so they went to the single exhaust per block assembly resulting in 3 exhaust pipes, the 125 hp wisconsin had a single exhaust in the center of the hood ,with taller radiator, and the fairbanks-morse diesel a single exhaust in the middle of the hood on the drivers side. Don
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  #28  
Old 07-28-2008, 07:20:44 PM
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Default Re: Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY

Rene, There were 2 steam lombards i know of used in new york,1 bought by the Hinckley fiber co. Hinckley N.Y. on nov 27 1906, and 1 bought by H.I. Wait, Goldsmith N.Y. on Dec 23 1907,also the James Barron corp of new york was a dealer and distributer for lombard tractors shipping them all over the world,there were a number of contractor special 88 dump trucks used on the bronx parkway,they had a 4 cylinder climax engine. Don
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Old 07-28-2008, 08:48:51 PM
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Default Re: Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY

Exhaust revisited....

Ok, I still don't think it can be a 100% indicator for motor type.

For instance I have 3 photos of No. 6 New, in service and abandoned. New it has the cast radiator and the exhaust exists out the bottom left rear.

In service at Clayton Lake it has the large single pipe just in front of the cab and offset to the left side. (as viewed from the drivers seat)

Abandoned it has the three stacks. This tractor when restored had a PT motor.

Tractor No. 4:
As delivered- bottom left side towards rear. In service Single pipe in the middle of the hood offset to the left side

Tractor No. 5:
As delivered- bottom left side towards rear. In service 3 pipes

Tractor No. 1:
As delivered- bottom left side towards rear. In service it looks like the manifold was flipped. The pipe exits near ther front of the hood towards left side.

All interesting stuff. Don, is the engine in the tractor at Cunliff a Lombard made engine or some other? My guess was that it is but I have never been 100% sure.

Best regards,

Terry
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  #30  
Old 07-29-2008, 08:11:06 AM
Rene Elliott Rene Elliott is offline
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Default Re: Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY

I have always thought of the steamers as simply light rail locomotives with tracks instead of wheels, a bit simplistic I suppose.
I usually tell people the quickest way to spot the difference between a Pheonix and Lombard is the steering gear, the phoenix has their's tipped out at a 45 degree angle, it just seems like they took more photos/postcards of those compared to Lombards.
Have long suspected the stories of steersman being crushed was an old tale, newspapers back then would circulate sensational stories of technology gone wrong like that across the country for months.
There have been some interesting Lombard pics on ebay lately, I try and stay focused on Linn, my hometown or the stuff we have collected (such as walking tractors, chainsaws, etc. for display) so don't bid on Lombard stuff, usually.
I will try and get the Madawaska pics out, if memory is correct they are c. August 1939, they were loading logs by hand in the snapshots, which would suggest they were picking them up here and there. Some of these were in a friend's collection I no longer have access to.
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Old 07-29-2008, 11:58:57 AM
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Default Re: Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY

Thanks Rene,

Most appreciated.

Terry Harper
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  #32  
Old 07-29-2008, 06:10:15 PM
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Default Re: Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY

Terry, the cunliffe machine has a 6 cylinder lombard engine, i believe lombard had compression and vibration problems with his engines, the cunliffe engine had blacksmith built right angle brackets that bolted the cylinder blocks to the crankcase,where the original ones broke loose he had to drill and tap the cylinder walls below the ring travel area and bolt into the cylinder wall, the 2 transfer case arangment was unique to lombard powered machines also, before he started using cotta transmissons. Don
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Old 07-29-2008, 07:15:30 PM
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Default Re: Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY

Thanks Don,

It just had that look about it. "crude". Here it is in better days.

Best regards,

Terry
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Old 07-29-2008, 09:38:47 PM
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Default Re: Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY

Ok, more info on the Cunliff Lombard.

Looking at some St. John Lumber Co. records:

Interestingly the first listing of W. Cunliff & Sons using a lombard is the 1922-23 season He submitted cost to the St. John Lumber Co. of $16.53 per M Bdf.

The entry reads "Cunliff & Lacroix using two log haulers."

The earlist entry for a gasoline loghauler in the region was 1921-22 C.E. Jones was noted as using a gasoline log haulers.This may be the operation depicted in the previously posted picture. He was also using at least one steamer.

Interestingly the earlist entry for a steam Lombard for the Allagash region was for Flavion Chouinard during the 1906-07 season. Still working to decypher were he was at that time. But that would have been a nice early one.

1921-22 was Lombard still offering his own engine and that funky transmission this late? or does it indicate that these tractors were purchased second hand? When did they switch?

Best regards,

Terry
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  #35  
Old 07-29-2008, 10:32:19 PM
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Default Re: Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY

Anyone got any photos of the Cunliff engine?
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Old 07-29-2008, 11:07:15 PM
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Default Re: Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY

I'm thinking the 4 T.C. Williams gas Lombards, all single stack, with 6 cylinder Wisconsins, date to the c. 1922-1925 era, and the circa 1926 and later gas Lombards have the multiple stacks, does that sound plausable?
Below one of many pics of those 4 Williams Lombards, they were used at Brandreth, near Tupper Lake, and Camp 9 of Gould Paper Co. on the Moose River before Adirondack Core & Plug ended up with the two that were junked(as previously mentioned). I was told the worm gear differentials were the weak link and needed special care and lubrication, but that Linn had better braking power on downgrades. No doubt with their bigger engines that the Lombard could pull more. But when you got over 20 sleds on a downhill haul things could get out of hand easily with any machine. Generally the ice roads would be rutted so steering wasn't so much an issue, but keeping them sanded (a woodstove kept the sand in a pit hot so as not to freeze to the steel sled shoes) on steep grades was the full time job of the "road monkeys". Full crawler, tracksteer machines would jack knife easily with a load behind them, especially when a driver tried holding it back with reverse. The Brown/Koroleff ratings of tractors for logging didn't include fatalities as a factor, men were cheap back then. My great grandfather heard his boss, who supplied the oak plank to the Linn Co., wish when his draft horse got fatally injured in the woods it had just been the hired man instead. At anyrate, I never saw any pictures of a Lombard on steep grades with a load here in NY/the Adirondacks, but that could simply be for the convenince of the photographer.
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Old 07-30-2008, 12:19:07 AM
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Default Re: Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY

Here is the Madawaska/LaCroix "L37D" or "B" series 20 ton Linn with Cummins H series diesel (they also used DFXE Hercules diesel) and extending pole trailer built by the Linn Trailer Co. of Oneonta, NY, taken in July 1937, right about the time H.H. Linn was killed in his plane crash just outside Morris. View of west end of the Linn tractor plant here in Morris, only the portion at far left remains.
I'm using up my attachment space but including image of the track sections or "lags", some with removable creepers, patented V design. The standard 69 type lags were 18" wide and weigh 26 pounds, about 25 in the standard track unit, made of manganese steel. 20 and 25 ton model Linns used the center drive wider 60 pound T36 type lag. Originally the nickle steel lag pins were notched on both ends and a keeper rivet inserted through holes in the lag jopints but this was replaced by a hollow end that was heated and swaged on later tracks. Replacement lag pins were oval in shape to match the worn holes. If the job was rocky you can sometimes find broken "ears" of the thin part of the lag joint, but due to the pin they wouldn't come loose until replaced. It's more common to find broken (A-11 or A-40)high ice creepers on logging jobs, those are the ones that really raised teh devil on paved roads if used for snowplowing. Obsolete info. but posted just in case anyone "tracks down" the remains of a Linn anywheres, so they can ID.
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Old 07-30-2008, 12:30:10 AM
Rene Elliott Rene Elliott is offline
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Default Re: Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY

Should add the 69 lag was standard from c. 1919 through end of production though improved and enlarged slightly. The "state road pad" would equalize the surface of the permanent v-shaped grouser to spread the weight and dig in less on paved roads. For machines on regular woad work they made the 1470 which has a "permanent road pad" in the face.
For the most part the 20 ton series was used in large strip mining operations or rock quarries wher eit wasn't feasible to lay rail, conveyor belts or use rubber tired vehicles on account of greasy mud or sharp rocks, but improved rubber tires on larger machinery pretty much doomed the future of sales so not many of these were built. The high ice creeper for the T36 lag is something I have never run across an example of, (and I have scrounged all over town, "industrial archeology") and the Madawaska unit maybe the only one to have used them.
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Old 07-30-2008, 12:52:25 AM
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Default Re: Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY

Thanks for the above notes on steam Lombards in NY, and on the exhaust stack issue, I somehow missed those posts until now. Had heard a crazy tale of a Lombard steamer remains upside down in a ravine found by a deer hunter, which I believe like bigfoot and Nessie sightings. The one I like best was a tale of two 30 Cats parked on top the deep snow up West Canada Creek in the southern Adirondacks, when spring came the snow melted, revealing a big crevass beneath them, they fell into and "merged tracks" so hopelessly they were left behind.
Somewhere I have a c. 1918 article (copy) that showed Lombards with regular iron tractor wheels on back being used at Hog Island Navy Yard, Philadelphia (now the airport?) during the rush to build piers, supposedly 4 gas Lombards had been so converted to haul the pile driving machines. I was under the impression that Barron was part of the outfit who actually bought control of Lombard Tractor Co. and that Louis Lombard was somehow part of the organization that resumed control/building Lombards again until the diesel (1934?) and servicing them/selling parts into the early 1950's? I had heard this was one reason production records were scanty for the gas haulers.
Bill Lynch showed me a flier for a air-operated winch they sold on a "U-Can-Back" like trailer for loading potato barrels and the like in the 1930's.
But was there any connection other than name at that point with the Lombard Governor Co. in MA that built the two man chainsaws with Homelite engines? (My father says he will continue to call it a "Homelite", which I honestly thought it was when I brought it home)
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Old 07-30-2008, 08:24:58 AM
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Default Re: Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY

Rene, I never heard of lombards with wheels on the back! Nathaniel Lombard patented the Lombard water wheel governer and started the company, he was one of Alvin Lombards brothers. Don
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