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Antique Steel Wheel Tractors - Old Iron Lugs and Cleats

Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY


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  #61  
Old 07-31-2008, 07:39:03 PM
tharper tharper is online now
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Default Re: Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY

Rene,

I found one later than that. (but not by much!)

What could be the last operation using Lombards took place during the Hollingsworth & Whitney's 1948-49 Kibby(?) operation. Apparently the contractor (from New Hampshire) used a pair of well cannabilised Lombards on a 15 mile haul.

One apparently had been repowered with an IHC Diesel and some form of one-shot lubrication system.

H&W scrapped their last three Lombards around 1945.


Best regards

Terry

P.S.
Yes, my dad remembers a Steven's farm. He's going to question my Grandmother. She is 94 but as sharp as a tack. In fact last year she bought a new car! The dealer couldn't believe it. One of her first trips in an automobile was in an air-cooled Franklin to Houlton & back.
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Old 07-31-2008, 07:50:42 PM
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Default Re: Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY

Terry, Would that operator have been Cleve West out of Errol N.H.? i know he was one of the last using lombards! ex Parker-Young Co machines, he actually tried out the 1 diesel machine that Great Northern ended up with, also in the movie "King Spruce" im pretty sure the lombards were wests also, i got a bunch of parts from his old garage up in Errol in the 1970's. Don
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  #63  
Old 07-31-2008, 10:19:29 PM
Rene Elliott Rene Elliott is offline
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Default Re: Lombards in NY

What I meant was I know of no other photos of a Lombard in NYS after their heyday, or WW2.
I'm assuming that it is a 6 cyl. Wisconsin in the Tug Hill machine, note two of theT.C. Williams Lombards had the center fastener on the radiator cap, and this is one of two with a fastener on either side. I know radiators were an issue, they dealt with Rome Turney in Rome, NY and apparently had vibration issues with the brass shell type, which of course were almost impossible to obtain during WW1 anyways.
Are there any records of Williams buying those four gas Lombards? Or anyone else that might have been these four machines? Partlow is just a whistlestop on the Adirondack D&H/NYC RR, about like "McCollums" where jobber John Davignon was from. He and Arthur Laporte, Sisson & White, Elmer Bernier and Joe Morin all traded Linn tractors back and forth amongst themselves depending on what jobs they were on for the season, ownership gets a bit confusing. It's a lot easier record wise when the company they worked for held title, such as A. Sherman, Raquette River Pulp & Paper, St. Regis, Gould Paper, etc.
I can only rely on the CCJ article about the USN Hog Island project machines, this was after the Lombard Auto Truck Co. of NYC (I have other trade issue articles about them) so I just figured it was someone's bright idea down there, the side profile does look like the machines from that period (exported to the UK and Russia/Germany/Finland), I would have guessed they were only rear wheel drive, with wheels grafted onto the jackshaft that normally turned the track drive sprocket, not sure any reduction ring gear on the wheel would be needed. I'm claim no expertise on Lombard, just read everything and anything contemporary I can find, would like to spend a few months on newspaper microfilm in Maine. Of course you couldn't believe everything you read in the newspapers back then either.
1926 Lombard Canadian agent J. S. Innes originally worked for Mussen's Limited selling Linn at least as late as 1923, he apparently was dissatisfied with the folks in Morris.
Thanks again for the owner info., I will see what I can dig up on the next expeditions up North. Barbara McMartin's "Great Forests of the Adirondacks" mentions the statistics of the H.L. Wait machine in Franklin County, NY, being referenced in Brown's "Logging" book. Also the photos of the one in use near Old Forge, NY, photos of which appeared c. 1954(?) in the "Northeastern Logger" magazine (my favorite source of logging info.). I only have a bad xerox copy of that, but would like to try comparing them to Wait's location. The Hinckley Fibre Co. unit was operated by jobber Fred Baxter, who once had a mill at Inlet on 5th lake, and was associated with "Norwolco" which built the road down to to what is now Limekiln State Park, I had a distant logging relative who shows up next to him on the 1920 census in Hinckley, Town of Russia, NY. It supposedly was junked c. 1925-27 by a jobber named John Sauer near Salisbury, NY, that site is now a hunting camp but I'm assured there is no iron laying about now, at that time it had only been used to draw milled hardwood lumber down to the railroad.
And every oversized old culvert or boiler left anywhere back in the woods is supposedly this machine and we are trying to run them all down just to be sure. I've looked at everything from Jeep or Ford pickup remains to army halftracks that were supposed to be Linns, I even was told about my 1930 FWD truck with homemade body (back in the 1950's) for woods use that used to sit on a dead end road with rear half behind a shed, as being a Linn. The best laugh I had over one of these goose chases was when I helped Ernest Portner run down the Dean Williams logging tractor he remembered being up to Redfield, NY, it turned out to have been cut down into a sawmill power unit he already owned.
On Linn tractors, in addition to the brass plate on the inside cab firewall, (exact placement depends on vintage), they stamped the serial number in the front crossmember of the frame. For "MOST" of production you will find it on the passenger side, towards the top, if you rest your right thumb on the front drawhitch it will be at your outstretched finger tips. Before the mid-1920's it was at about 3 o'clock over the hole in the crossmember for the hand crank, this is something I only discovered on my own about five years ago. (I have yet to find a serial number placement on the C-series tractors, but then mine was factory rebuilt anyways, and no plate in the cab).
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Old 08-01-2008, 08:04:30 AM
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Default Re: Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY

Rene, T.C. Williams bought 4 lombards from the factory, the first machine was s/n 2114 sterling engine machine bought in Pittsfield Vt. also bought was 15 sets of sled irons for a total cost of $8000 , on Nov. 19 1920, the 2nd machine s/n 2122 a sterling engine machine was bought in Stockbridge Vt. was bought for $6200 in Dec 31 1921, the 3rd and 4th machines s/n,s 3033,3034 with wisconsin engines were bought in Forestport N.Y. in Dec 16 1924, they were $6750 less 10 % each.Champlain realty co. bought s/n 2035 at Morgan Siding, N.Y. a wisconsin powered machine on Dec 12 1917, this machine was being used at Tupper Lake N.Y. in 1931. I have been on numbers of lombard searches also ,chasing down every old story from the old timers usually resulting in finding parts to almost everything but lombards, i Did own the remains of another linn 6-28 also years back it was in the back of Wolmans junkyard in Waterville ,Maine all i got was the front axle and hard rubber tires off it , it was way in the back of the scrap yard , they said when they got cleaned out in front they would call me, well i kept calling them and they hadnt got back to it, then one time i called and" oh were sorry our guys must have scrapped it by accident" no money back and i was some PIZZED , live and learn. Don
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  #65  
Old 08-01-2008, 08:33:09 AM
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Default Re: Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY

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Originally Posted by loggah View Post
Terry, Would that operator have been Cleve West out of Errol N.H.? i know he was one of the last using lombards! ex Parker-Young Co machines, he actually tried out the 1 diesel machine that Great Northern ended up with, also in the movie "King Spruce" im pretty sure the lombards were wests also, i got a bunch of parts from his old garage up in Errol in the 1970's. Don
Don,

Iam not sure. I can ask. Ray Vigue worked for Hollingsworth & Whitney he's 98 now but still very active. It will have to go by snail mail so it may be awhile.

I always wondered what happened to that Fairbanks diesel Lombard.

I do have some film footage of the diesel as well as various Lombards working on a Great Northern operation. Its about 20 min. long. Not sure if this is from "King Spruce". In the footage I have, A.O. himself is driving it around without the cab and side panels. Later its shown pulling a house.

I know back in the late sixties John Sinclair (Seven Islands) had some old footage showing a steamer in operation as well as an Allagash horse boat. I have yet to see that either.

Rene,

This is a bit off topic. but do you have anything on Champlain Reality? Why I ask is this: A lot of the pulpcars used on Lacroix's Eagle Lake & West Branch railroad arrived stenciled for the Champlain Reality Co. Later of course they became part of International Paper.

I know Lacroix had worked with them but just wondering were the cars came from. Also, EL&WB locomotive No. 1 came from the Grasse River R.R. It was thier No. 63 (we have the tin number plate) However I have yet to find any information, photos etc. of its time on the Grasse River. Before that it was on the Potato Creek railroad. In fact the backhead plate we found inidicated that the boiler had its last hydro in 1918 while working on that railroad.

Got ot love these mysteries!

Best regards,

Terry

P.S. Thanks for the additional info on Lacroic's Linn. Most appreciated.
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  #66  
Old 08-01-2008, 11:36:00 AM
Rene Elliott Rene Elliott is offline
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Default Re: Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY

So 5 gas Lombards in the Adirondacks? Then the pic I posted from Tupper Lake probably the 5th machine.
The Lombards delivered at Forestport probably the Gould Paper Co. Camp 9 units, as that was the railhead and their road network ran up the Moose River to Adirondack League Club lands they leased, I would bet these were the ones that ended up on Tug Hill and junked over there. It makes me wonder if Williams himself moved in from VT because I don't know where he came from other than the name on the cab side saying "Partlow, NY". Maybe it isn't OWD # 1 Linn in the lake, maybe it's "just" a Lombard?
Champion Realty & International Paper, see Bill Gove's and Michael Kudish books on logging/railroads in the Adirondacks, especially Woods Lake RR. (Gove wrote at least one article on that job for Northern Logger, said Bushey loved Cats over Linns even though one rolled and killed his brother). It just happens my mother's grandfather used to deer hunt that territory when George Bushey ran the operation, a lot of those railcars were in use there.
Also the Adirondack Museum in Blue Mtn. Lake, NY has about every bit of paper from the Emporium Lumber Co. and Grasse River RR there plus tons of pics, Gerald Pepper is the librarian and very helpful, Portner and I have spent several days in the vault going through papers as he has a c. 1921 Emporium Linn. I know for a fact there is material there on the lease or purchase of rolling stock but I honestly was focused on tractors and locations of use/jobbers. But I will check my notes. They also have a lot of gas Lombard pics, which until now I would have guessed were all William's.
The "mother lode" I have always hoped to find is a stripped out WW1 Renault tank but I don't think they had any success selling them for logging, Emporium supposedly tried some. The armor-less Holts are a bit more realistic, we did find part of a 10-ton pad and hoodsides once near Big Moose but that's about it.
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Old 08-01-2008, 01:37:22 PM
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Default Re: Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY

Rene, A few lombards did make it to bottoms of lakes,or just partly through, i have pictures of a horizontal boiler steamer partly submerged in fish lake in Me. also a gas lombard partly through the ice here in Campton, also one through a bridge here both hapened on the same day.
Terry, Champlain Realty Co, had 3 gas log haulers , eventually they were bought by Parker-Young co, who eventually bought 5 more totaling 8 the were used here in the late 20's in Waterville Valley and Ellsworth N.H. Don
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Old 08-01-2008, 02:28:44 PM
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Default Re: Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY

Thought you folks might like this one. Last year "Narrow Gauge & Shortline" published an article I wrote on the Eagle Lake & West Branch railroad as well as drawings I made for a 10 Ton Lombard and the Lombard that was converted by GNP to run on the rail.

Gordon Birrell has been creating a 3/4"=1'-0" model of the rail tractor based on my drawings Here is what it looks like to date.



Pretty neat!

Best regards,

Terry
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  #69  
Old 08-01-2008, 02:31:23 PM
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Default Re: Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY

And one more:




I would say he has a bit of talent.
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Old 08-01-2008, 04:24:11 PM
Rene Elliott Rene Elliott is offline
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Default Re: Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY

In a word, AWESOME model. Breton recently got a model taht was built according to plans in c. 1970's "Live Steam" magazine or something like that, and Bill Lynch has been working on one, not sure if he has it done now or not.
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Old 08-01-2008, 04:30:51 PM
Rene Elliott Rene Elliott is offline
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Default Re: Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY

Pic of Breton's steamer model, and of Portner's ex-Emporium Linn, re-worked c. WW2 era, it had a GMC truck cab and front grafted on top when he got this up near Owls Head, NY some years ago. By process of elimination I believe it is #290, model WA (I may have called it a "S" but apologize if I did, this was the subsequent model, with 60 hp "EU" Waukesha). The front wheels and emergency brake are off a c. 1930's Mack, the steering sled, on back, had the wood replaced by using railroad brake shoes and rails of the Grasse River RR. I have been after him to get this one done next, only Linn older is #1, a 1917 machine rebuilt c. 1932 for display, now in a small building near our village fire department on Main St., Morris.
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  #72  
Old 08-01-2008, 05:27:43 PM
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Default Re: Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY

Rene, I got to agree with you awesome is the answer! on both models, Terry that tractor has some detail what exactly is he making it of aluminum,or iron castings, or just machining it all from steel ,its a work of art!! just got done putting a new radiator core in mine so im pretty familiar with all those pieces,. starting on the new deck also. Don
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Old 08-01-2008, 06:26:39 PM
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Default Re: Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY

Don,

Believe it almost all styrene. Here's the link to his photos and other projects:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/77318580@N00/

Enjoy!
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Old 08-01-2008, 06:55:05 PM
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Default Re: Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY

Terry, one talented individual!!!! im just clever enough to bolt the original parts together !!. Don
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Old 08-01-2008, 07:49:19 PM
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Default Re: Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY

Rene,

That Linn will be quite the project. Your mention of an AC Mack made me juckle a bit. A number of years ago I was visiting some relatives on the coast. My cousins husband, knowing I like old stuff took me around. In an old granite quarry we came across an old scuttle nose Mack with a crane on it. The cab was all smashed-up - just the scuttle left and the rear wall. The front wheels were nothing more than a handfull of wooden spokes. Amazingly the engine was still in it though stripped. The crane had a Wakashau that could still be turned over on the crank. I have never seen such wide solid rubber tires in my life!

Always wondered why with Maine's granite industry more Lombards weren't used. I have only seen one photo of one associated with the granite industry.

Rene,

A friend of mine worked for Blue Rock Industries of Westbrook, ME. back in the sixties. He said at that time they still had an old Linn they were using. The last time he saw it it was sitting out back in the discard pile. I asked about it a few years ago. Unfortunatly they had long since cleaned out the old stuff. If it were still there it would have been buried under the new off-ramp they built a few years ago.

I sure wish I had been able to start my research and explorations earlier!

Best regards,

Terry
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Old 08-02-2008, 01:08:58 AM
Rene Elliott Rene Elliott is offline
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Default Re: Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY

I think Breton had mentioned the Linn in the yard at Wolman's/Waterville, said it was cleaned out by the time he learned of it, I didn't know Don had bought it, now I have to beg for the serial number or engine data if he wrote that down?
Basically when I quiz people about a Linn they remember (or look at a snapshot of one) I ask if solid or pnuematic wheels, 4 or 6 cylinder, cylinders in pairs? Exhaust stack underneath or up through hood? (c. 1937 changed). Did it have the cable operated tailgate? "LINN" on the front wheel hubs, stake pockets and steering wheel? Louvres on the hoodsides and one or two latches per side? Cast iron or channel steel crossmember on the front? One or three track tension springs? All of that helps me determine model/vintage and then I can narrow it down geographically and make guesses from the known list of owners. You can usually tell by looking at the frame if it had dump body hinges at the rear or hoist mounted behind the cab. And yes they factory rebuilt them (and added a "S" behind the serial number) and modified all that so it's not bullet proof. Joey Barnes figured out the Linn in the Moosejaw, SK museum actually has the cab and thus serial number plate off another machine, by comparing with the serial number stamped in the frame, so while still a 6-26-E Linn it has a different vintage cab, he says going through the ice was rough on them. I'm guessing it would have been a 6-28-D or so at Wolman's?
Years ago I saw a pic of a Linn with a beefed up rear frame that was supposed to have been junked in Maine while a guy couldn't decide whether or not to but it, don't know if this was the Waterville, Bluerock or some other unit.
I do know they used a few Linns down in Vermont (Vermont Marble Co. of Barre?) for hauling ten ton blocks, both on the back of the tractor and on a "bummer" (flat iron wheeled trailer) behind it. I had put Dave Zsido and Bob Giddings of Rutland onto that some years ago but they had no luck.
The Bulldog Mack mounted cranes were quite popular, I have seen two here in Upstate NY not counting the local railroad club that has one with a LJ Mack front grafted on and it's model 3 Northwest Climax engine replaced with a 6SRK Waukesha out of a c. 1940 Walter truck, accomplished by building a gear case to reverse the drive direction.
It seems to me the one version of the Lombard Twin used two Climax engines driving on the same flywheel, must have been some trick to get it/keep it in synch?
Of course Larry Marmet's (steamshovelman at aol.com) 1918 Buckeye trencher (that is also on youtube) has a big 4 cyl Climax he somehow found a replacement for. That was "lost" in the brush behind the Masonic home in the middle of Utica, NY for decades. I was thinking he bought an AC Mack crane unit at some point, he had a Erie shovel but sold it because it needed serious work, and got a Lima clam that he runs at the Schoharie/Gallupville, NY show where the trencher is.
The Mack parts on the Portner ex-Emporium tractor match those on a mid-1930's CL model (cabover) Mack truck a guy who restored them in Bainbridge, NY used to have (the late Bob Theimer). The GMC truck spliced on was a 1942. Portner has a c. 1928 Cat 60 with similar conversion with a 1940's GMC schoolbus front end. One of my wild goose chases took me to George Cizmar's yard in glenfield, NY where he has/had a 1940's Mack schoolbus grafted onto a WW2 army halftrack someone tried using as a crane mount for log loading but it kept tipping over. I did get a nice Willamette winch off him that came from Gould Paper Co. but it may be too big for my little EG 42 Cletrac, will have to see. My father says all you need to be happy in life is a good winch at home
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Old 08-02-2008, 01:40:57 AM
Rene Elliott Rene Elliott is offline
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Default Re: Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY

So Mr. Johnson I have to ask about a serial number or whatever you can say on that Wolman Linn?
And Mr. Terry, many times I wish I had been born sooner to learn/save more, but it's just fate we came along when we have, with the intrest, to save what we can, and record it/preserve it for when it finally gets acceptable as "history".
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Old 08-02-2008, 06:17:25 AM
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Default Re: Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY

Rene, Not much to say on the linn it had a 6 cylinder waukasha engine just like the one i have in mine i didnt get any numbers off it, hard rubber tire front end, the frame had been cut off right behind the cab ,the tracks were there as well as the differential, why they just took the frame rails is beyond me, i converted the front end to go under one of my lombards, they also told me at wolmans they cut up the city of Waterville;s 1934 lombard snow plow tractor that had a wisconsin D-4 motor in it!! Up untill about 3 years ago there was the remains of a linn in Lyndonville VT. it belonged to Ray O. Parker and had a Quarter swing crane on the back, it didnt have the right engine or radiator, it was it was sold with the property to someone in connecticut, i couldnt find out who owned it and then it dissapeared!! i remember them using it in the late sixtys in waterville valley putting up ski towers on Mt. Tecumseh. Don
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Old 08-02-2008, 06:41:03 AM
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Default Re: Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY

Rene, the first twin or the A.O.L. as it was called had 2-4 cylinder stearns engines with a common crankcase ,one engine ran clockwise one counterclockwise, the transmissons and rearends were mounted in one common case, it had 2 clutches and 2 transmissions the steering was by speeding up a engine or slowing down a engine. the new twin had 2-4 cylinder wisconsin engines, similar to the modeL P.T. engines 5 3/4 bore 7 inch stroke. 63 h.p. at 800 R.P.M. they were mounted in special hangers at 8 degrees each side had, clutch,transmission, and differential mounted seperately, the throttles were connected to the steering wheel so turning would slow one and speed up the other each way top speed 8 m.p.h. . 126 h.p. in a tractor in that day was unheard of, holt and best full track crawlers had 60 h.p. at the time. some of the old holt or best crawlers with the wheel steering used 90 to 120 h.p. but they had been discontinued. Don
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Old 08-02-2008, 09:59:19 AM
Rene Elliott Rene Elliott is offline
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Default Re: Linn at 150 years of logging show in Indian Lake, NY

Thanks, so Climax engines are out as far as the Twin is concerned. Interesting Lombard/Harkness used Stearns, seems to me Stearns, Ludington, MI, (I have found parts reciepts/moneyorder records but no model #) went in with Monarch tractors (another machine I have always liked) and were swallowed up by Allis Chalmers eventually. Linn used only a few Stearns about 1920, switched to Wisconsin 4 cyl. RAU/RBU and then settled on Waukesha by 1921. I always supposed the purpose of the Twin was evading Holt/Cat patents, as I know the Holt/Cat lawyers tried to shut down anyone they could for infringement on patent or copyright on "Caterpillar" (which had been a generic term for crawlers tractors, supposedly first applied to a Hornsby by a British soldier).
Sounds like Wolmans probably an early 6-28-D then (6= # engine cylinders, 28 = 1928 model year, D= dump body, they would add a "U" for underbody hoist, "3" for 3-way body if original, "R" for reversing transmission - same speeds either way option, to avoid turning around). The easy difference between 26 and 28 models being they switch from wood spoke to steel and widened the frame & cab several inches, (your axles matching? indicate 28) the "E" suffix models were "extra" long, same as "P" platform models were, sometimes. I can also go by the differential model or part numbers on the drive sprocket but no one else looks at that, just me.
When they began the "revised" 28 models, c. 1931 (yeah, sounds odd, they soon came out with a 33, which had "LINN" cast all over it) it had beefed up track parts, triple track tension springs, the outer frame rails instead of stopping alongside the back end of the cab and rest on an inverted piece of channel, bend 45 degrees inward to the subframe from then on till end of production. Hood louvres and the optional patented automatic downfold tailgate - using tension on a cable around the box and over a post behind the cab, which slackened as the box raised, were next. (Yes, it had a big coil spring up front to keep slack out of the line, hazardous to mess with).
In the attached photo, it was probably one of the first revised 28 model tractors with automatic downfold tailgate c. 1931, (sheet iron guard over the "hammer" or cam attached to tailgate shaft, instead of later cast iron)thus the factory pics being taken of it. Note the louvered hoodsides, hard rubber still the low cost option, (endorsed for hard rock jobs that shredded pnuematics), the wide cab (elbow room with windows up) came out about 1929, with bars on the back window to keep the larger rocks out (steel cab guard on dump body optional), steel bodyside stakes instead of wood, triple track springs, outer frame rail connects to subframe instead of just ending. BUT not a 33 model, as the track oiler reservoir tank is still ahead of the rockerbeam axle (from which the track suspension pivots), not behind. I would "guesstimate" the serial number close to 2000, but it's probably a model first (6-28-DUR?) so easier to pin down if I looked at the records.
A lot of people liked the angle iron and channel steel on the back of a Linn, especially for making guardposts, rails, repair girders in bridges, other trucks, trailers, etc. and a lot of it was used around my village and our school, but for liability and high scrap values most have been yanked now. I've always wondered if the single track machine ended up in the concrete floor of the factory or pond spillway. Around the doorframe between the waterwheel room and generator room you can see a gusseted channel steel frame that has always made me wonder if once part of a pre-1918 tractor.
I believe Dana Carrara, Lake Bomoseen, VT, got the Lyndonville machine with Hyster shovel on back, said it was a precariously balanced thing. Havn't heard from him lately but told Portner he expects to be at the Woodsmens Field Days in Boonville, NY with his patented powerhead winch attachment he is selling for compact tractors. It's a tough market now with loggers unable to sell logs for enough to pay fuel costs, at least here in this high taxed state.
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