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Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion

Historical Engine Article Series I - Early Crossley Slide Valve Engine Tests


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  #21  
Old 03-20-2012, 08:24:38 PM
eddie bedwell eddie bedwell is offline
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series I - Early Crossley Slide Valve Engine Tests

Hi Team,
in a post above someone mentioned the inlet airbox.
Our 10 manpower inverted Crossley-otto has an airbox mounted on its side and cannot possibly hold water.
Within the airbox are some 4 removable square plates with (from memory) approximately a 1" hole cast in one corner.
These plates can be shuffled around to, I believe, increase or decrease the intake vacuum, by making a more or less torturous path for the inlet air to flow thru. I guess an adjustable labyrinth orifice.

Somewhere in literature I have, from period books, it tells of the factory asking for details of the gas supply pressure and flow details as well as a sample of the supplied gas so they could tune the engine at the factory prior to delivery.
I can only surmise that in part of the tuning process that they TUNED the engine by altering the labyrinth to get the needed Power output etc.
This would change the gas/air ratio, in relation to the gas supply conditions, the gas supply would be at a non-variable regulated set pressure for each building due to lighting needs etc.

I tuned ours this way to a gas barbeque regulator pressure of 10" of water pressure. This then got the engines hand operated gas control valve to work at the Factory lines(valve openings) etched onto the valve collar.

The gas supply pressure would be at a set value in each building, for lighting etc. so could be assumed constant and not variable.
The gas bags fitted to these engines was mainly for a accumulator to help stop the buildings gas lighting flickering each time the engine drew on the gas supply.

--I stand to be corrected on any of the points above. BUT this has been my experience of ours.

Cheers,
Eddie B.
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  #22  
Old 03-20-2012, 09:34:04 PM
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Brian Triebner Brian Triebner is offline
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series I - Early Crossley Slide Valve Engine Tests

Two questions Wayne, what date was this work done and why wouldn't Drake pick two like sized engines to compare, apples and oranges to me ? I know you can't possibly know what he was thinking but you probably have a thought, after all if you could find a slide valve still in service you could surely find a similar horsepower poppet valve engine.
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  #23  
Old 03-21-2012, 07:17:29 AM
Wayne Grenning's Avatar
Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series I - Early Crossley Slide Valve Engine Tests

Brian. Good questions. The data I presented at the beginning of this thread was taken from a large comparison of many different engines. I believe the testing on the slide and poppet engines was done in September of 1894.
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To answer your second question, Yes in a perfect world it would be ideal to have similar size engines to test however, the numbers Clerk was looking for were units of gas consumption and other values represented per horsepower per hour and are for the most part independent of the HP size of the engine. These values show the changes in the design and efficiency gains between the two differently constructed engines.

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No one wants to guess on the Atkinson PV diagram question from my previous post??.
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  #24  
Old 03-21-2012, 07:34:07 AM
Wayne Timms Wayne Timms is offline
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series I - Early Crossley Slide Valve Engine Tests

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddie bedwell View Post
Hi Team,
in a post above someone mentioned the inlet airbox.
Our 10 manpower inverted Crossley-otto has an airbox mounted on its side and cannot possibly hold water.
Hi Eddie,

That would be me. I originally thought it was a gas trap with water in the bottom but after Wayne G's info that 1ft of water would only be good for 1/2 pound, I started searching to see what I could find.......whilst there are diagrams, there is no text to explain how it works.

I have only ever seen the manifold arrangement in the base on gas engines.

In the picture below, the manifold running beneath the barrel to the subbase is elongated in cross-section, with an inner cast wall creating two separate channels. From memory at least one of the openings drops lower into the subbase. The air intake itself is the downward facing piece at the front of the engine.

I have also included a picture of a later Crossley hot tube engine, and again there is no text describing what is in the subbase.

Regards,
Wayne

P.S. I only just recently had a query from a collector that his large gas engine was bolted to an oil engine base, he thought this chamber was fuel tank.
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Last edited by Wayne Timms; 03-21-2012 at 07:36:41 AM. Reason: Adding info
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  #25  
Old 03-21-2012, 07:40:55 AM
Wayne Timms Wayne Timms is offline
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series I - Early Crossley Slide Valve Engine Tests

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Grenning View Post
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No one wants to guess on the Atkinson PV diagram question from my previous post??.
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Hi Wayne,
I am waiting for someone else to have a go first.
Cheers,
Wayne

www.bluefuel-whitesmoke.com
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  #26  
Old 03-21-2012, 07:42:01 AM
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Woody Sins Woody Sins is offline
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series I - Early Crossley Slide Valve Engine Tests

Wayne,

The pistons sweep the entire cylinder at one point or another during the operation of the engine, and there isn't a good place to tap the cylinder for an indicator. At some point, the pistons would close off the indicator tap no matter where it was placed.
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  #27  
Old 03-21-2012, 07:55:23 AM
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Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series I - Early Crossley Slide Valve Engine Tests

Woody, You are correct! There are unswept segments of the cylinder where the indicator pressure tap could be taken from. In the case of the Atkinson Indicator shown above, the pressure tap was located in a position showing compression and combustion pressure.
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  #28  
Old 03-21-2012, 01:28:26 PM
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Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series I - Early Crossley Slide Valve Engine Tests

Here is an interesting little chart showing the effects of different compression ratios in similar Crossley engines. The right column shows the fuel consumption per HP per Hr. The second from the right shows the peak pressure at compression in PSIG. I would assume that the top Engine was a slide valve.
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Also it must be noted that in the late 1800's before the introduction of Methane ( Natural gas ) in the street, available coal gas ( illuminating gas) varied widely city to city - it could be 650 btu / lb in one town and a few miles away be at 850 BTU / lb. That would account for huge differences in the way engines performed or the way the test results looked on paper.



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  #29  
Old 03-21-2012, 04:03:18 PM
oldjdinterest oldjdinterest is offline
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series I - Early Crossley Slide Valve Engine Tests

Hi Wayne, a question about your other project; Is the Van Duzen running yet? Never seen a thread about it.
I was wondering if you finished that great project!

Thanks Gerrit
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  #30  
Old 03-21-2012, 05:17:01 PM
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Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series I - Early Crossley Slide Valve Engine Tests

Gerrit, I haven't forgotten about it. Work will resume on the Van Duzen a few weeks from now. There is another project I need to finish ( or at least get mostly done first). At that time I will resurrect the Restoration thread. It has to be done soon as I am delivering it to Coolspring!
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  #31  
Old 03-21-2012, 11:09:22 PM
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series I - Early Crossley Slide Valve Engine Tests

Wayne and crew,

I am amazed that we can use our knowledge together for this wonderful hobby in this fashion. This is one of the best discussions I’ve had at work or at play!

It would be interesting to run a test of these engines with our modern day equipment and data acquisition (DAQ) systems. A patent for a “Pressure Indicator and Recorder” was issued to W.H. Bristol on Sept. 18, 1888 and his company, which was recently acquired by Emerson Electric in 2006 and still continues to make electro-mechanical chart recorders to this day. I would venture to say that a chart-recorder was used to get some of these P-V diagrams back in the late 1800s early 20th century. Some of these diagrams look like there were created from chart recorders while others are too perfect and were probably sketched from a few data points taken manually.

I have spent a number of years in laboratories at various companies and universities. There are few things I have been taught about DAQ system and test instrumentation:
1) Pressure transducers, indicators, etc.- no matter what type they are have a set linear range. What this means is that even when properly calibrated, there is a range over which the pressure in the cylinder corresponds to a set electrical voltage. Outside this linear range it is difficult to keep a consistent one-to-one relationship with the pressure and the voltage and thereby giving you a possible undershoot or overshoot of the actual gauge pressure.
2) The accuracy & repeatability of the chart recorder itself along with circuitry involved in acquiring the data: Analog chart recorders using a galvanometer movement to directly drive the pen have limited sensitivity. A modern chart recorder is an embedded computer system with an analog to digital converter, a microcontroller, and a hard-copy printing device; such instruments allow great flexibility in signal processing, variable chart speed on process upsets, and can also communicate their measurments to remote points. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chart_recorder)
3) The importance of a proper Wheatstone bridge for measuring “unknown” electrical resistances (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheatstone_bridge). In many cases, the significance of measuring the unknown resistance is related to measuring the impact of some physical phenomenon - such as force, temperature, pressure, etc. - which thereby allows the use of Wheatstone bridge in measuring those elements indirectly. Again we have to be aware of the fact that the Wheatstone bridge of the day would be of a earlier quality compared to today, due mainly to the materials used in the resistors.
4) Materials of the day: The other fact in comparing indicators from over a 100 years ago to today is the difference in materials used to make up the instruments. There wasn’t the quality control in the chemistry or the metallurgy that we have today. The consistency or repeatability of one indicator to another back then would not be that great. For example the diaphragm type differential transducers that we have are made of spring steel. Technically these should be replaced every so often due to reaching the endurance limit in fatigue of the steel if used in a continuous day-to-day basis. The quality of spring steel over a century ago and it's relation to linearity, endurance and repeatability could be quite different.
5) Finally, is the phenomena we are trying to capture too fast for our instruments to see? If we are missing some data points then our analysis is incomplete. Using a chart recorder back in 1888 would capture a lot more data than a test engineer visually recording pressures prior to this date. Similarly our modern day equipment can sample data at higher frequencies than previous generation equipment.

Sorry for being so long winded, but with all that said, you never know, if a modern day test comes within 10% of something done over a century ago, I would say a home-run has been hit, maybe even a grandslam.

The great thing with testing and experimentation is that you will always find something new and interesting.
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  #32  
Old 03-22-2012, 06:10:26 AM
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Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series I - Early Crossley Slide Valve Engine Tests

DSP, Thanks for your insight and completely agree with your thoughts. Being involved with engine testing back in college and in my current career with turbines, instrumentation is everything. Modern control systems and DAQ's have revolutionized the way machinery is tested and run.

For those interested in reading a very in dept test on a slide valve engine. The link below gives the results of a very thorough test on a 10 HP Schleicher Schumm slide valve engine. It was tested at the Stevens Institute in New Jersey through a several week period spanning May to June in 1883. The engine was loaned to the Institute by Schleicher for this purpose. It starts on page 88. and discusses many of the topics mentioned above.

Also an engine identical to this one survives today and is located in Tennessee.

http://books.google.com/books?id=crp...upreme&f=false

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Back to the Atkinson Engine for a moment: The two figures below illustrate the piston positions in the cylinders at the moment of compression and exhaust. It is clear that an indicator pressure tap will be unable to record all the events in the combustion chamber.
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Compression:


Exhaust

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  #33  
Old 03-22-2012, 12:27:52 PM
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Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series I - Early Crossley Slide Valve Engine Tests

I am posting some information that Patrick Knight was kind enough to forward to me regarding the installation location of Crossley SN 19772 ( mentioned in post #6 above) Thanks Patrick.

""Your posting listed two Crossley Brothers engines; s/n 4683, a 6 Nominal Horsepower of 1882 and s/n 19772 a 9 Nominal Horsepower 1892. Unfortunately my files of Crossley Brothers engine of this era are rather scrappy if I have anything at all However, from the info given on engine s/n 19772; going to the Clifton Rocks Railway after extensive tests etc I did a quick Internet search, and if you have not already done so I can advise that the Clifton Rock railway was a water powered underground "Funicular" railway taking passengers from the Clifton top station down through a tunnel to the bottom station to an area known as Hotwells and on to Bristol Harbour. The railway was opened on 11th March 1893 and operated for 40 years finally closing on 1st October 1934. As I said the railway was water powered (basically water was used as a counter balance to raise the lower carriage as the upper carriage descended.
I would therefore assume that the Crossley Brothers engine was used to pump the water back up to the top of the system for reuse. Regards Patrick Knight""

Thanks Patrick.

Last edited by Wayne Grenning; 03-22-2012 at 08:16:28 PM.
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  #34  
Old 04-01-2012, 05:10:31 AM
Wayne Timms Wayne Timms is offline
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series I - Early Crossley Slide Valve Engine Tests

Hi,

Looking back at Wayne's Grenning's post : "Early Crossley Slide Valve engine - "Twin" "

http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=92625

The air silencer/manifold running to the base may be more age related rather than size.

On the following thread, "Non existant part on almost all old engines" there is good detail of the manifold running to the base, it suggests that it may be an air cleaner but I think it is more to do with Eddie's comments of increasing negative pressure on the engine side of the gas valve.

http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=79575

Regards,
Wayne

www.bluefuel-whitesmoke.com
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  #35  
Old 04-01-2012, 10:51:47 PM
Bill Hazzard Bill Hazzard is offline
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series I - Early Crossley Slide Valve Engine Tests

I tried to scan the indicator diagrams that I made of my Domestic but they didn't turn out. They have faded badly since I made them and the scanner could not pick up the faint lines. I should have traced over them with a pen when I made them. My indicator uses a metal stylus and special paper to make the diagrams, not a small pencil point like others which is why I guess they faded.
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  #36  
Old 05-17-2012, 11:49:20 AM
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Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series I - Early Crossley Slide Valve Engine Tests

This kind of fits in with the early Crossley theme.

A drawing of a Holt / Crossley slide valve engine powering a rail car?

Interesting device. They made sure to detail the hand brake in the sketch but didn't give any attention to the illuminating gas source ( portable ??)


Last edited by Wayne Grenning; 05-17-2012 at 08:05:43 PM.
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  #37  
Old 02-08-2016, 01:05:45 PM
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series I - Early Crossley Slide Valve Engine Tests

Wayne and others... I'm reading this thread with great interest... I'm surprised that the differences between the early slide valve and later poppet valve engines is so dramatic. I had thought that the original Otto gas engines had a an efficiency of about 17% which seems good even by todays standards.. Do you know what the difference if efficiency % between the low compression slide valve and and higher compression poppet valve engines are? I wonder what effect a Miller cycle would have if the compression stroke was reduced or is it necessary to also reduce the combustion space to get an efficiency gain? I'm also trying to visualize what P/V indicator card might look like for an optimized Brayton cycle engine. I like that you included Atkinson in the mix... also liking the photos of Otto's original test engine. Early engine history is cool stuff.
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  #38  
Old 02-08-2016, 02:20:47 PM
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series I - Early Crossley Slide Valve Engine Tests

John, post #1 and #28 in this thread have comparisons between different compression engines. Post one directly corelates and early slide valve engine with a newer poppet ( 50% higher compression).
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  #39  
Old 02-08-2016, 06:33:39 PM
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series I - Early Crossley Slide Valve Engine Tests

Thanks for pointing that out, I guess I had missed those efficiency numbers. My curiosity stems from the assumption that raising the compression alone raises the efficiency of an engine. That seems like a bit of oversimplification because in most engines increasing the compression also increases the expansion. Atkinson cycle uses a differential ratio which focuses on a larger expansion ratio. In other words would an Atkinson type engine with a peak cylinder pressure of 40 psi still have a higher % efficiency than a 80 psi Otto cycle engine? Any ideas?

It seems the only way to record cylinder pressures on the opposed piston Atkinson would be to have a hose running through the backside of one of the pistons...

I found this in James D. Roots book "The Cycles of Gas and Oil engines" 1899. I hope it's OK to post this here... I know the theme of the thread was comparing the slide vs poppet valve Crossley. I thought it was an interesting comparison between the Otto and Atkinson.. Let me know if it doesn't fit and I'll remove it.








Last edited by imotorhead64; 02-09-2016 at 01:22:20 AM.
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  #40  
Old 02-09-2016, 01:13:49 AM
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series I - Early Crossley Slide Valve Engine Tests





I noticed mention was made of passing the intake air though water... Interesting Roots mentions testing outputs with moist and dry hot and cold air. Speaking of hot air... something that caught my attention is that the slide valve engine has a narrow passage which is where the intake passes and combustion occurs. The surfaces would be hot and could be transferring some considerable heat to the intake air, which is typically bad for efficiency.

Here's a link to the book. https://books.google.com/books?id=Qx...engine&f=false

Last edited by imotorhead64; 02-09-2016 at 09:27:41 AM.
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