Antique Engines and Old Iron
[Home] - [HELP] - [Forums] - [Library] - [Photo Gallery] - [Groups] - [Classified Ads] - [Subscribe] - [Links] - [Books] - [Sponsors] -

Go Back   SmokStak > SmokStak® Antique Engine Community > Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion
Forgot Password? Join Us!

Notices

Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion Meet collectors of hit and miss engines, ask questions about collecting, restoring and showing antique flywheel engines.

Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion

1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration


this thread has 904 replies and has been viewed 159076 times

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 02-25-2015, 10:34:01 AM
FredsSleds FredsSleds is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Flushing, Michigan, USA
Posts: 320
Thanks: 1,004
Thanked 382 Times in 136 Posts
Default Re: 1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration

Thanks for doing all this Wayne, I really enjoy your build posts and detailed pictures!
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to FredsSleds For This Post:
Sponsored Links
  #22  
Old 02-25-2015, 02:38:10 PM
Jerry Toews Jerry Toews is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Goessel, Kansas
Posts: 30
Thanks: 25
Thanked 287 Times in 20 Posts
Default Re: 1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration

Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata is PERFECT for this video--a completely emotional experience for me watching it. THANKS Wayne!!!
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Jerry Toews For This Post:
  #23  
Old 02-25-2015, 02:53:52 PM
Wayne Grenning's Avatar
Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lockport, New York, USA
Posts: 3,245
Thanks: 3,178
Thanked 28,385 Times in 2,568 Posts
Images: 72
Default Re: 1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration

Jerry, Thanks, I thought it was fitting for the speed and motion of the slide and piston in the 3D rendering.

Last edited by Wayne Grenning; 02-25-2015 at 06:33:33 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Wayne Grenning For This Post:
  #24  
Old 02-25-2015, 06:57:56 PM
Wayne Grenning's Avatar
Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lockport, New York, USA
Posts: 3,245
Thanks: 3,178
Thanked 28,385 Times in 2,568 Posts
Images: 72
Default Re: 1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration

So the hands on portion of the project gets started. Not really having a well developed plan on what part to machine first, I remove the cylinder to have a close look at what we really have.
.


.
As mentioned previously, the owner already had the piston and cylinder bore repaired so that was one step I didn't have to worry about. However, replacing the missing slide valve system was going to be a big job. Here is a close up of the cylinder end that we have to work with. It looks like Swiss cheese with a completely unacceptable, huge combustion chamber opening. Also are diametrical grooves machined into the surface. These need to go away and the hole need to become smaller ! The two 3/4" threaded holes at the 10:00 and 4:00 positions were for the studs that held on the components that replaced the slide valve. These holes was added during the retrofit. The small hole at 9:00 position is a fixture drilled hole at the factory that was put there for a dowel pin that located the slide valve wear plate "backing plate". The Large Rectangular hole on the right at 3:00 is the outside air inlet port to the slide valve. The four (non-evenly) spaced screw holes around the center combustion chamber opening are there for the backing plate mounting screws.
.
.
.


..
Next is to mask off the area and apply a generous coating of layout blue.
.

.
The fixture drilled backing plate locating dowel pin hole mentioned above was key to getting everything properly located in this cylinder. From the precise measurements taken on the Anson Engine Museum engine the exact location of each of the missing slide valve could be determined. The location of each part was represented as a measurement from the dowel pin hole. The first critical thing to lay out is the actual location of the upper and lower slide valve guides. Even with a book of measurements, mechanical judgement comes into play as castings vary over time and the patterns that were used to make the molds were undoubtedly replaced on some periodic time-frame.
.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 02-25-2015, 07:13:53 PM
Wayne Grenning's Avatar
Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lockport, New York, USA
Posts: 3,245
Thanks: 3,178
Thanked 28,385 Times in 2,568 Posts
Images: 72
Default Re: 1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration

Ok so here is the end of the cylinder with a few scribed lines. No big deal put 'em there and get on with the job. Well, it a big deal. There is a fine balance of them being in the right place so the slide valve functions and the future parts that get attached to the cylinder appear good to the eye. The top and bottom horizontal lines represent the actual location of the slide valve guide surfaces. This represents an evening of work. As a stubborn German machinist taught me over twenty years ago, measure twice.... In this case I measured many times! The pointer is indicating the fixture drilled hole. Also I determined the combustion chamber hole is 300% wider than it should be - aarggh!
.

.
Next I need to make a fixture that will attach to the cylinder end that can be affixed firmly and represents the exact vertical position of the slide valve. A piece of iron plate will do the job nicely. Lots of chips are made.
.

.

.
The step in the fixture block will be used to hold it against the mounting pad for the side shaft bearing. The side shaft bearing will actually be installed to secure the fixture in the correct location.
.
Reply With Quote
The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Wayne Grenning For This Post:
  #26  
Old 02-25-2015, 07:28:03 PM
Wayne Grenning's Avatar
Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lockport, New York, USA
Posts: 3,245
Thanks: 3,178
Thanked 28,385 Times in 2,568 Posts
Images: 72
Default Re: 1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration

The fixture plate is surface ground on all sides positioned in the correct locatio n and secured with the side shaft bearing.
.
.
.
Next the replacement cast iron guides are rough machined on the mill. Here the top guide is set up with shims to make a best attempt at getting at getting it "flat"
.
.
.
The bottom guide: Each part gives it own challenges in fixturing it properly on the milling machine table.
.

.
The top guide finished ready for the surface grinder. Here you can see the radiused surface with a nice sharp point that will help it to visually blend with the cylinder end.
.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 02-25-2015, 09:45:42 PM
Brian Triebner's Avatar
Brian Triebner Brian Triebner is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Kippen, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 780
Thanks: 5,329
Thanked 852 Times in 279 Posts
Default Re: 1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration

Question, if the backing plate (wear plate) has the correct size hole does it matter if the hole in the cylinder is too big if it gets covered up anyway? Thanks
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Brian Triebner For This Post:
  #28  
Old 02-26-2015, 07:10:07 AM
Wayne Grenning's Avatar
Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lockport, New York, USA
Posts: 3,245
Thanks: 3,178
Thanked 28,385 Times in 2,568 Posts
Images: 72
Default Re: 1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration

Brian, Good question. There does exist a substantial mismatch in the combustion chamber opening size in the cylinder vs the backing plate aperture. The approximate size of the backing plate opening which will not be finalized until the port geometry is calculated, is 7/8" wide by 1 5/8" tall or 1 3/8 sq inches. The current cylinder opening has been butchered to over 2" x 2.5" resulting in 5 sq in +. The difference between the two is 3.4 sq inches of surface area. In a gasketed environment this would make absolutely no difference however the wear plate will have a hand scraped matched fit to the head. Peak combustion pressure of lets assume 150 PSI will exert over 500 pounds force on the mismatched surface of the backing plate every time it fires. The four fillister head screws holding the wear to the head plate do little more than retain it there. With the mis-match, the plate will flex convex every time it fires. Now, you may say really? How much? Lets be conservative and say the flex is only five tenthousands (0.0005) in the center. In the big scheme of things this is not much, but in the world of slide valves its huge. What will happen: the plate (or slide valve) will wear in the contact area around the combustion chamber port - the one place on the valve system extra clearance absolutely can not exist. The result will be mis-fires and blow-by of combustion gasses past the contact surfaces. Possibly I am being a bit over cautious, but its easy to fix now that its in the shop.

---------- Post added at 06:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:53 AM ----------

Next step is to do the preliminary machining on the slide valve cover.

.
.

It is set up on the Bridgeport - not an easy thing to get set up correctly with the irregular surface against the table.
.

.
A rough cut is taken:
.

.
Next the clamps are loosened to eliminate any flex on the casting and a light pass taken on the entire surface. Also the inside surface of each of the four "hooks" on the cover are cut to their final size. These keep the cover positioned on the cylinder end by engaging the yet to be mounted slide valve guides.
.

.
Reply With Quote
The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to Wayne Grenning For This Post:
  #29  
Old 02-26-2015, 07:18:22 AM
Wayne Grenning's Avatar
Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lockport, New York, USA
Posts: 3,245
Thanks: 3,178
Thanked 28,385 Times in 2,568 Posts
Images: 72
Default Re: 1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration

Appearing relatively simple this is a very complicated part. A few of the many pages of drawings needed to make it follow:
.

.

.

.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 02-26-2015, 07:29:51 AM
Wayne Grenning's Avatar
Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lockport, New York, USA
Posts: 3,245
Thanks: 3,178
Thanked 28,385 Times in 2,568 Posts
Images: 72
Default Re: 1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration


.
The cover is removed from the milling machine and the slide valve guide blocks machined to the proper length so they engage the cover hooks with a "line- fit"
.


Next the cover is placed on the cylinder end to evaluate the fit-up of the assembly. The fillet cast into the top guide block seems to look alright.
.

.
.
.
.

At this point I need to ruminate about the proper way to proceed. A nagging issue since before I began this project was how I am going to machine the end of the cylinder to accept the slide valve guides. Its over a foot in diameter, 26 inches long and weighs 600 lbs. If only I had a VTL............
.
.Unfortunately one of these is not in the back of my shop: http://shubmachinery.com/wp-content/...-1-836x560.jpg
.
.
.
.
.
.

Last edited by Wayne Grenning; 02-26-2015 at 07:44:59 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 02-26-2015, 07:52:50 AM
Elden DuRand's Avatar
Elden DuRand Elden DuRand is offline
In Memory Of
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Port St. Joe, Florida, USA
Posts: 7,833
Thanks: 13,116
Thanked 7,895 Times in 2,966 Posts
Images: 11
Default Re: 1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration

VTL??!!

Naww. All it will take is a hand drill, chisels, a "Swedish mill" or two, the scraper set and a little elbow grease.

We've got faith in you, kid! Have at it!
__________________
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Take care - Elden
http://www.eldensengines.com
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Elden DuRand For This Post:
  #32  
Old 02-26-2015, 01:52:28 PM
Wayne Grenning's Avatar
Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lockport, New York, USA
Posts: 3,245
Thanks: 3,178
Thanked 28,385 Times in 2,568 Posts
Images: 72
Default Re: 1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration

So while I contemplate the cylinder set up, it made sense to machine something relatively easy. Chose to do the Air inlet silencer next. Here it is set up on the milling machine.
.
[IMG][/IMG].
.
Shimmed on the bottom to keep an even footing on the table light cuts are taken..


.



Not really the correct cutter the job I used this because I had a bunch of them and the diameter was right. The center hole was opened to the same diameter as the hole in the head.
.

.
A chamfer is cut into so it can be secured in the live center of the lath next.
.

Last edited by Wayne Grenning; 02-26-2015 at 02:13:47 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Wayne Grenning For This Post:
  #33  
Old 02-26-2015, 02:04:51 PM
LCJudge LCJudge is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Magnolia, Kentucky, USA
Posts: 3,192
Thanks: 2,276
Thanked 7,441 Times in 1,635 Posts
Default Re: 1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration

Wayne, just curious, did you ever think about making a "faux head" that would attach to the end of the cylinder that would contain the bosses and flanges that have been milled off?

Me and Jerry briefly discussed some trade at one time on that engine (I wished I had discussed it more with Jerry now.....I'm sure he's glad I didn't!). I looked at the engine closely when I was at Jerry's to see what it would take to put it back in original running order. As you mention, a new cylinder casting was one angle. But, the cost was prohibitive to do that. The governor bracketing and flanges weren't going to be a big issue and I would have approached it exactly as you have.

I had thought of a different approach to the end of the cylinder. I was thinking of making a casting that would be exactly like the end of the original cylinder that would attach to the end of the milled off area. In other words, it would be like taking the original cylinder (before it had been butchered) and slicing the end of it off about 1/4 inch thick. I would have the end of the cylinder milled off another 1/8 inch or so to make it the exact length of the original cylinder, attach my plate with all the bosses and flanges on it to the end of the cylinder, probably via screws. I would then blend all of the edges and radius' back in to the original cylinder and hopefully it would be un-noticeable.

I don't know if I've made sense in my description of how I had planned to do it. You're doing a fantastic job and I'm sure the way you are doing it will probably be more substantial than what I had planned. Sure wished me and Jerry had chatted more now.....
__________________
Tommy Turner
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to LCJudge For This Post:
  #34  
Old 02-26-2015, 02:09:01 PM
Wayne Grenning's Avatar
Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lockport, New York, USA
Posts: 3,245
Thanks: 3,178
Thanked 28,385 Times in 2,568 Posts
Images: 72
Default Re: 1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration

Because of limited space between the spindle and the top of the air silencer a pilot drill is held in a collet in the spindle.
.
.
.
The silencer is flipped over and held to the table by the small flange.
.
.
The lower flange is machined taking light cuts - trying my hardest not to let it ring like a bell.
.

.

Machining the face and inside diameter of the air silencers bolt on retaining flange.
.
.
.
With the flange secured to the air silencer body, the mounting holes are drilled.

.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 02-26-2015, 08:45:12 PM
Wayne Grenning's Avatar
Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lockport, New York, USA
Posts: 3,245
Thanks: 3,178
Thanked 28,385 Times in 2,568 Posts
Images: 72
Default Re: 1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration

Tommy, Your method of repair was one Jerry and I spoke of prior to starting this project. As you know there are many correct ways of accomplishing the same job. My one fear with the Faux-Head was the stand-off height from the end of the cylinder. There needed to be enough "Meat" on the casting to incorporate an ample flange thickness for bolting w/o distortion or slide leakage. Also it needed to have additional thickness to accomodate the backing plate slot. I have no doubt it would have functioned properly, it seemed to me the individual bolt on guide method might be the lesser of two evils and hopefully not as visually obvious when finished.
Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Wayne Grenning For This Post:
  #36  
Old 02-26-2015, 10:15:10 PM
con-rad con-rad is offline
Registered-II
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Guilford, Connecticut
Posts: 538
Thanks: 66
Thanked 410 Times in 196 Posts
Default Re: 1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration

this is yet another amazing thread wayne. I look forward to seeing your progress!

conrad
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to con-rad For This Post:
  #37  
Old 02-26-2015, 10:21:09 PM
LCJudge LCJudge is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Magnolia, Kentucky, USA
Posts: 3,192
Thanks: 2,276
Thanked 7,441 Times in 1,635 Posts
Default Re: 1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration

Wayne here's another thought that wasn't in play a few years ago. Since your son is doing complete 3 D drawings on the missing pieces, have you thought to having them 3 D printed and then cast? Someone told me there is now a 3 D patternmaking program that will do core boxes, etc. Wow, things have come a long way.
__________________
Tommy Turner
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to LCJudge For This Post:
  #38  
Old 02-28-2015, 05:15:39 AM
Wayne Grenning's Avatar
Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lockport, New York, USA
Posts: 3,245
Thanks: 3,178
Thanked 28,385 Times in 2,568 Posts
Images: 72
Default Re: 1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration

Tommy, Yes I have thought about printing a pattern directly and am quite aware of the technology. A friend of mine in upstate working for a well known printer company was doing this over 15 years ago. These 3D printing machines have come way down in price, but still the more affordable ones have a limited working size. I am sure there are at least a few on the 'Stack who have done this.

---------- Post added at 04:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:08 AM ----------

The Drawings for the inlet air Silencer:
.

.
.
.
The silencer is mounted in the lathe to true up a few irregularities in the neck of the casting, also to establish a flat shoulder that the mounting nuts can rest against.
.
.
.
The silencer is dry-fit on the cylinder.
.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Wayne Grenning For This Post:
  #39  
Old 02-28-2015, 05:26:01 AM
Wayne Grenning's Avatar
Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lockport, New York, USA
Posts: 3,245
Thanks: 3,178
Thanked 28,385 Times in 2,568 Posts
Images: 72
Default Re: 1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration

The internal cast iron baffles and spacer rings that go inside the silencer. Requiring no machining, they just get hit lightly with a grinder to remove all sharp edges and are used "as-cast" Three pair get stacked inside and the cover flange bolted on. The stack is designed so that an 1/16 - 1/8" of compression is exerted on the components when the flange bolts are tight.
.

.
The Finished silencer: (note that the temporary hex bolts will eventually be replace with the appropriate square head hardware)
.
.
.

.
Reply With Quote
The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to Wayne Grenning For This Post:
  #40  
Old 02-28-2015, 06:12:44 AM
Wayne Grenning's Avatar
Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lockport, New York, USA
Posts: 3,245
Thanks: 3,178
Thanked 28,385 Times in 2,568 Posts
Images: 72
Default Re: 1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration

Ok now to have some fun. The cylinder is over 25 inches long and cant be machine in my equipment as built. My Bridgeport as originally built had a maximum distance form the spindle to the table of about 18 1/2". During the Schleicher, Schumm & Co. restoration I put 7" a "riser" block in the column to increase this dimension to 25 1/2". The cylinder ( with the slide valve guides and cover installed) I would need at least 30" plus another foot for the drill chuck and the drills , reams, ect that would be in it. The machine is not even close to being adequate. I have check several local shops to inquire about their abilities. There are many that can fit this cylinder in a large frame milling machine but the detail of work that needs to be done to fit everything would require a great deal of my time. The cylinder work is the most critical of the job. But I have a plan....
.
.Step one, jack up the mill so that I can retrieve it with a pallet jack from the comfortable corner of the shop that it is located in.
.
.
.
Roll it over so that it is under the lifting beam.
.
.
.
Rigging the milling machine and ram with two chain-falls, the upper section is removed ( what an awkward thing to pick up).
.
.
.

.
.
The shop camera is getting old. I apologize, sorry for the poor quality and dark spot that keeps showing up in the center of many pictures. I guess after 5000 photos, cutting fluid, oil and chips and an accidental "ker-plunk" in a lake some time ago, its time to replace. I ordered a new old stock version of my previous camera on Ebay for $19. We will be using that soon
Reply With Quote
The Following 11 Users Say Thank You to Wayne Grenning For This Post:
Reply

Bookmarks


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

F o r u m Jump

Similar Threads Chosen at Random
Thread Thread Starter F o r u m Replies Last Post
Historical Engine Article Series I - Early Crossley Slide Valve Engine Tests Wayne Grenning Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion 97 03-13-2016 11:30:39 AM
Crossley slide valve piano base kevinthechemist Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion 3 10-12-2015 05:35:27 AM
Crossley Piano Base Engine waynocp Smokstak Down Under 40 06-21-2015 10:36:09 AM
10 HP Schleicher Schumm Slide Valve Engine Restoration - Page 3 Wayne Grenning Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion 41 08-13-2012 10:54:42 PM
Slide valve Crossley in Townsville pitty Smokstak Down Under 11 06-07-2011 04:38:43 AM


Use "Ctrl" mouse wheel to change screen size.
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:12:27 AM.

Smokstak and Enginads site search!


All use is subject to our TERMS OF SERVICE
SMOKSTAK® is a Registered Trade Mark - A Community of Antique Engine Enthusiasts
Copyright © 2000 - 2019 by Harry Matthews P.O. Box 5612 - Sarasota, FL 34277