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Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion

1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration


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  #61  
Old 03-01-2015, 07:25:12 AM
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Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
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Default Re: 1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration

The guides are attached, of course some blending of the guide blocks and the cylinder are still needed but mechanically they are now part of the cylinder once again.
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Next is time to get rid of the cap screw and dowel pin holes.
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The exact hole size is needed for the 5/16" capscrew counterbored hole. Using a pin gage set I can determine closely the size pin to make. Photo of a pin gage set from 0.250" up to 0.500"
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We select the pin gage that just snugly fits into the hole, in this case 0.449".
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Cast iron plugs are made for each size holes. The are tapered starting at the pin gage diameter increasing to 0.0015 oversize
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  #62  
Old 03-01-2015, 07:30:01 AM
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Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
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Default Re: 1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration

The plugs are secured with loctite 545 and hammered int the holes leaving some material sticking above so that it can be trimmed flush with an end mill.
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The plug as driven in the hole..

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All the plugs are installed.
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After "trimming".
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  #63  
Old 03-01-2015, 07:41:15 AM
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Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
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Default Re: 1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration

Im going to try something to copy the original surface finish on the guide face and see how it works.
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1st step - to measure the tool marks from an original undisturbed planed surface on the cylinder. Measured approximately 30 passes per inch which gives a convenient spacing of 0.033" between each pass
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Bare with me here:
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This is the cutter I will use.
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A tool holder will be made. - here we are drilling the hole in the end to accept the cutter.
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Twoo securing set screw hole are drilled and tapped.
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  #64  
Old 03-01-2015, 07:59:15 AM
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Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
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Default Re: 1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration

The shank of the holder is turned down so it will fit in a collet. Finished tool - about 20 minutes to make.
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secured in the spindle of the billing machine with the "back gears" engages and the brake locked on.
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In a finely orchestrated of series of table, knee and feed movements, the first pass of the cutter is taken with the table feed on "Rapid". The cutting depth is 0.002 with 0.033" increments.
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Several more passes - I think this is going to work!
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---------- Post added at 06:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:50 AM ----------

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Well that is about where the project stands as of this weekend. I hope the detail is not to much? The new shop camera came in so the fuzzy photos will no longer be an issue. The thread will be updated a couple times a week or as progress is made. There is still a tremendous amount of work that needs to be done, but a firm game plan has been laid out and 90% of the parts and materials needed to complete the job are on hand. This is one of five jobs in the shop right now, but it will represent about 80% of my efforts.
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Last edited by Wayne Grenning; 03-01-2015 at 09:48:09 AM.
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  #65  
Old 03-01-2015, 10:30:06 AM
Bill Hazzard Bill Hazzard is offline
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Default Re: 1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration

I bet you are the first person to turn a Bridgeport into an open sided planer.
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  #66  
Old 03-01-2015, 10:42:01 AM
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Chris Epping Chris Epping is offline
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Default Re: 1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Hazzard View Post
I bet you are the first person to turn a Bridgeport into an open sided planer.
Only Wayne would have thought of that!
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  #67  
Old 03-01-2015, 05:15:18 PM
Jerry Toews Jerry Toews is offline
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Default Re: 1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration

Well Tommy, I see three VERY lucky things here;
#1 - You and I never got a deal worked out.
#2 - I never started working on this project!!
#3 - Wayne has put in YEARS of thought, research, time, effort, idea development, sticktuitiveness, downright persistence, more research, time and effort to make him the MOST deserving to do this project. It is just pure luck that I didn't start on this project at some time during the 35 years I have owned it. I thought about putting it back to slide valve many times. MANY years ago, probably in the 80's John Wilcox and I took the Coolspring Engine apart and made a notebook full of drawings; at another time perhaps in the 90's I took Ray Elison's Slide apart and made a notebook of drawings; I thought about the possibility that perhaps I should leave it as it had been converted to show how engines were recycled during the 1890's. I feel VERY luck to not have screwed it up during the years I owned it. This is one time; when letting the engine set gathering dust was the CORRECT thing to do. THANKS Wayne!!! You are the man for the job; and I especially appreciate you taking the time, so that those of us who share interest in this early stuff can share in the time and effort YOU are putting forth to make certain that the job is done correctly.
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  #68  
Old 03-01-2015, 08:58:42 PM
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PFT PFT is offline
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Default Re: 1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration

Thanks for posting all of this, it is most interesting and informative. Evan an old guy like me can learn a few things from an expert like you.
Does the mill loose much rigidity with that much riser in it?
That is amazing work Wayne.
PT
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  #69  
Old 03-02-2015, 09:20:15 PM
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Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
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Default Re: 1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration

Thanks for all the complements. Glad to be able to share these "fun" rare opportunities.

PT. The mill does indeed loose some rigidity with the extra risers. I was really doubtful if it would have the stiffness needed for the planing operation, but it worked, even though a slow tedious operation.
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  #70  
Old 03-03-2015, 07:28:40 AM
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Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
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Default Re: 1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration

I received the bronze castings from the foundry, which came out excellent.

The first is for the ignition flame pet-cock.
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Here is an original set up: It seems than most of these have been lost over time.
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Next casting, The "Y"- pipe and union nuts for the ignition and relight flame.
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An Original as installed on the early style 3 1/2 HP engine in the Wilcox building at Coolspring.
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---------- Post added at 06:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:25 AM ----------

A couple more castings received are for the inlet gas valve, nut and pipe.
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An original at Coolspring.
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  #71  
Old 03-09-2015, 06:33:41 AM
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Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
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Default Re: 1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration

The next part to work on is the slide valve backing plate. However the first step is to take a very light cut on the surfaces of the guides to establish perfectly parallel surfaces. There was 0.005 final machining allowance built into these when installed.
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The drawing for the backing plate
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The first step is to mark and cut to length an appropriate piece of cast iron. This particular bar was ordered stress relieved so that it does not change shape while machining.
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  #72  
Old 03-09-2015, 06:42:33 AM
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Default Re: 1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration

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The actual guide spacing is measured with gage blocks so this dimension can be used when fitting the backing plate to the cylinder end.
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The plate is put in the Bridgeport and milled close to final size. When finished it will be hand scrapped for a perfect gas tight finish
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The ends are milled to length.
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  #73  
Old 03-09-2015, 07:17:55 AM
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Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
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Default Re: 1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration

I made a new stud and nut that go to the end of the cylinder. The original stud was machined off and the nut lost during its conversion years ago.
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Also I was experimenting with some aging techniques. The newly machined and textured surface now sort of resembles the rest of the cylinder. I think with a little more encouragement we can do even better.
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The stud and nut on the Anson engine
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The backing plate is checked for fit. For our purposes until the final hand scraping and porting this will do fine.
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  #74  
Old 03-09-2015, 07:34:57 AM
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Default Re: 1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration

Next is the Slide valve. This will be rough machined until the final porting and scraping is done later on.
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Several views of the preliminary slide valve design follow:
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  #75  
Old 03-09-2015, 11:55:42 AM
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Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
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Default Re: 1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration

Next job it to do the preliminary fitting of the slide valve.

This involves rough machining the sealing faces of the valve and final machining ( and surface grinding ) the edges.
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  #76  
Old 03-09-2015, 12:09:26 PM
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Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
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Default Re: 1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration

The owner of the engine agreed it would be a good idea to have a second backing plate and slide valve made while in the shop. This complements the engine and returns it to the state it was at when originally delivered from the Factory in 1882. When the original "installed" slide valve assemble became worn, the slide and wear plate were removed and sent to the factory for reconditioning. To eliminate downtime, the spare slide and backing plate were installed in the engine.
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Here is a blank slide valve casting alongside one that has been rough machined.
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The next two images show the two slide valve in their partially machined state (Scraping and final port shape will occur later).
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The partially machined slide valve along side a slightly smaller original from an 1887 2 HP Crossley slide valve piano base (Just for comparison purposes only)
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  #77  
Old 03-09-2015, 02:22:43 PM
Dave Otto Dave Otto is offline
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Default Re: 1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration

Hi Wayne

What is the purpose of the stud and nut that you added back at post #73?

Enjoying your progress,
Dave
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  #78  
Old 03-09-2015, 05:29:43 PM
Dustin D Ehli Dustin D Ehli is offline
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Default Re: 1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration

Is this slide cast iron??
Wasnt the slide you made for the 10 HP some kind of bronze?
Just curious
Keep up the awesome work Wayne.
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  #79  
Old 03-09-2015, 09:54:44 PM
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Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
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Default Re: 1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration

Dave, I was waiting for someone to ask that. See the photo below of the 3 1/2 HP Crossley engine at anson, with the slide valve and backing plate removed. You can clearly see the same nut and two others exposed with the backing plate removed. These studs go through the cylinder end and into the cylinder liner. They keep the liner gasket securely tight to keep the waterjacket isolated from the combustion chamber. The mystery of the day is why on the inside of the water jacket are there not any studs or any bosses on the liner to accept one? Possibly a replacement liner that didn't use such a feature?? The other two located at 10:00 and 2:00 have been removed also. The liner is also held in place as a flange extension of it gets squeezed between the cylinder and the crankcase. The tighter the cylinder mounting bolts get tightened the tighter the combustion chamber gasket gets - At least this is my interpretation on how this works. If anyone else has additional information, please speak up.




The same spot on the engine in the shop

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  #80  
Old 03-10-2015, 06:15:21 AM
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Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
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Default Re: 1882 Crossley Bros. 3 1/2 HP Piano Base Slide Valve Engine Restoration

Dustin, Correct, the slide on the 10 HP Schleicher. Schumm & Co. Engine was made from "Bell Bronze" (21% Tin, 79% Copper), a very difficult alloy to find today. My foundry bought the raw material and actually mixed it in the furnace. It is nice in that it does not rust but the cost is prohibitive today. The bare casting for the Schleicher slide valve was over $1250 !

---------- Post added at 06:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:43 AM ----------

Next is to machine the oil reservoir into the top edge of the valve body. I have been trying to figure out how to get the 2" rad curve into each end of it, Then I found a 4" slitting saw in the bottom of my tool box. Although it will take a few passes it should work OK.

Again, an original smaller slide valve along one of the replacements for SN 4484
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A close up of the slots end on an original.
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The set up in the milling machine taking the first pass at about 0.072" deep at the 0.110" width of the cutter.
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Beginning of the second pass:
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