Antique Engines and Old Iron
[Home] - [HELP] - [Forums] - [Library] - [Photo Gallery] - [Groups] - [Classified Ads] - [Subscribe] - [Links] - [Books] - [Sponsors] -

Go Back   SmokStak > SmokStak® Antique Engine Community > Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion
Forgot Password? Join Us!

Notices

Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion Meet collectors of hit and miss engines, ask questions about collecting, restoring and showing antique flywheel engines.

Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion

1867 Otto Langen SN 1 Where is it ?


this thread has 82 replies and has been viewed 23244 times

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-24-2007, 11:32:16 AM
Wayne Grenning's Avatar
Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lockport, New York, USA
Posts: 3,245
Thanks: 3,178
Thanked 28,385 Times in 2,568 Posts
Images: 72
Default 1867 Otto Langen SN 1 Where is it ?

This question is geared more toward the European viewers, Does anyone know if the very first Otto Langen made is available for public view. This is the same one that was shown at the 1867 Universal Exposition in Paris and the same engine that was on display at the Deutz headquarters museum. It is my understanding that the museum has been shut down for a number of years and the engines are no longer open to the public. Thanks - Wayne

Last edited by Wayne Grenning; 10-25-2007 at 10:59:29 AM.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 10-24-2007, 02:53:59 PM
Marcel P's Avatar
Marcel P Marcel P is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Belgium
Posts: 737
Thanks: 3,679
Thanked 1,383 Times in 336 Posts
Default Re: 1667 Otto Langen SN 1 Where is it ?

Wayne
If you mean this one, it was still there in 2001, don't know what happened since then. Maybe others can fill in the gap? Also the first 4-stroke Otto slide valve was there, and a Lenoir with flywheel removed.
Marcel
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMGP0903.JPG
Views:	660
Size:	137.0 KB
ID:	24949   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMGP0904.JPG
Views:	704
Size:	124.2 KB
ID:	24950   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMGP0902.JPG
Views:	555
Size:	118.6 KB
ID:	24951  
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-24-2007, 08:40:17 PM
Mike Monnier's Avatar
Mike Monnier Mike Monnier is offline
Hoarder
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Casstown, Ohio, USA
Posts: 2,604
Thanks: 4,938
Thanked 3,166 Times in 980 Posts
Default Re: 1667 Otto Langen SN 1 Where is it ?

Where is the museum located? My sister works in Stuttgart, so maybe I can send her on a field trip to check out some engines.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-25-2007, 09:26:39 AM
Wayne Grenning's Avatar
Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lockport, New York, USA
Posts: 3,245
Thanks: 3,178
Thanked 28,385 Times in 2,568 Posts
Images: 72
Default Re: 1667 Otto Langen SN 1 Where is it ?

Marcel, Yes the inverted engine in the first photo is the one. I have not been able to locate anything about it or the museum online. Are these engines still located in the Deutz Co Museum? Thanks?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-25-2007, 04:08:33 PM
Oostvogels Oostvogels is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 180
Thanks: 54
Thanked 227 Times in 36 Posts
Default Re: 1667 Otto Langen SN 1 Where is it ?

Hi all,
I can ask someone if you like....
We have a friend who worked for Deutz the Netherlands for very many years and still knows all there is to know about Deutz.
I think it was called the Klockner-Humboldt-Deutz museum and I think it used to be in Köln.
This website gives an address in Köln
We've never been there but saw many pictures of it.
This is the link to the Deutz website.
I hope this helps.

We have, after very many years of searching found the book .....Geschichte der Gasmotoren Fabrik Deutz Schrijver: Writer: Conrad Matschoss Uitgever: Publisher: M.Dumont, Köln ..... Verlag des Deutscher Ingenieure, Berlin NW7 Sommerstraße 4a
It's a beautiful book about their 50th anniversary with a forword of June or July 1921.
It was not cheap but we really enjoy it very much. (it took this long to find one we could afford )


Best regards of Jeanne Oostvogels
www.stationaryengines.tk

Last edited by Oostvogels; 10-26-2007 at 10:35:08 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-25-2007, 04:19:22 PM
Oostvogels Oostvogels is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 180
Thanks: 54
Thanked 227 Times in 36 Posts
Default Re: 1667 Otto Langen SN 1 Where is it ?

I found this on youtube



ENJOY!!!!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-26-2007, 10:31:21 AM
Wayne Grenning's Avatar
Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lockport, New York, USA
Posts: 3,245
Thanks: 3,178
Thanked 28,385 Times in 2,568 Posts
Images: 72
Default Re: 1667 Otto Langen SN 1 Where is it ?

Thanks for info!

If any one has good photos of this engine let me know.

Last edited by Wayne Grenning; 10-26-2007 at 01:16:13 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-26-2007, 12:12:33 PM
Brian Triebner's Avatar
Brian Triebner Brian Triebner is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Kippen, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 780
Thanks: 5,326
Thanked 852 Times in 279 Posts
Default Re: 1667 Otto Langen SN 1 Where is it ?

Hi Jeanne : Please post some pictures from that book, especially the early engines, if possible . Regards Brian
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-26-2007, 01:33:12 PM
Wayne Timms Wayne Timms is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Victoria, Australia
Posts: 1,050
Thanks: 1,632
Thanked 2,053 Times in 558 Posts
Default Re: 1667 Otto Langen SN 1 Where is it ?

Hi Wayne,

The collection doesn't exist as it once did. You have probably seen the old 1970s photo of the engines in a large room. Some of the engines have been relocated to other museums, including Holtzhausen, Otto’s Birthplace, in Germany (definitely worth a look if you are ever near Frankfurt).

Most of the engines from the collection are easily recognisable by a small brass plate attached to the engine with a catalogue number on it. The atmospheric engine, which was sold a number of years ago in Germany at auction, has the same plate and at some point was part of the Deutz collection

The 1867 Otto Langen, as seen in the photo posted by Marcel, the Mignon and Rouart Bisschop engine, the Brayton and a slide valve Deutz are in a museum as pictured. Not sure what else is still there. Apparently it is not open to the public and you need to know someone to get you in.

A collector in Holland sent us a picture of himself with the "so called" No 1 Otto Langen atmospheric engine about 2 years as his Xmas card.

My view is that it is definitely the first one sold, I have serious doubts about it being the first one built. Although it does have the second shaft being driven from the opposite side of the engine, when compared to the other 3 fluted-column surviving engines. Number 7 being the youngest that I am aware of and it is in the Deutsches Museum in Munich, although I have been told it is no longer on display.

The pattern for engine number 7 was so heavily modified that it is impossible that it was used to built the 3 earlier engines.

Are you thinking full-scale fluted columns, Wayne?

Wayne Timms

Last edited by Wayne Timms; 10-26-2007 at 03:35:38 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-26-2007, 02:11:21 PM
Oostvogels Oostvogels is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 180
Thanks: 54
Thanked 227 Times in 36 Posts
Default Re: 1667 Otto Langen SN 1 Where is it ?

Hi Waine Timms, how are you? I guess we could ask the person in your Christmas card to tell us where he made the picture????
Hi Brian, Would it be copyrighted those pictures? I'd love to scan some for you.
I also have pictures in a book or folder made by the museum.
Our Friend tells me that the engine you refer to probably is still in the collection of Deutz.
The location now probably is Köln Porsz. A short time ago the German television had a program about Deutz. Hope you know your German........
The person now in charge of all antique engines at the moment is Dietman Vors.

I'll see what I can do for you all with copies.


Best regards to you all, Jeanne

Last edited by Oostvogels; 10-26-2007 at 02:32:57 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 10-26-2007, 03:04:35 PM
Brian Triebner's Avatar
Brian Triebner Brian Triebner is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Kippen, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 780
Thanks: 5,326
Thanked 852 Times in 279 Posts
Default Re: 1667 Otto Langen SN 1 Where is it ?

The Deutsches Museum in Munich has a picture of the early fluted column engine on their web page . There is also one in Sydney that I am sure Wayne knows more about .
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 10-26-2007, 04:42:32 PM
Oostvogels Oostvogels is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 180
Thanks: 54
Thanked 227 Times in 36 Posts
Default Re: 1667 Otto Langen SN 1 Where is it ?

Well here I am again.
I just made copies of the whole brochure and placed it on a page.
I hope no one of KHD will object to this or I'll remove it at once of course.
Would it perhaps be this engine? This is what the folder says:
I will tommorow again try to make some pictures of the images in the old book. I'm not keen on folding it open for scanns as the back will break if I do that.
Hope you all will like the folder.
Feel free to copy or save the pictures of the webpage (right click on them) but don't use them for anything as I truly don't know about their copy right.

Jeanne
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 10-27-2007, 05:01:45 PM
Oostvogels Oostvogels is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 180
Thanks: 54
Thanked 227 Times in 36 Posts
Default Re: 1667 Otto Langen SN 1 Where is it ?

Hi,

Here are some pictures of the book I told you all about.
Brian, they are not very sharp but I hope you can enjoy them anyway.

Best regards,
Jeanne
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 10-28-2007, 08:44:34 AM
Wayne Grenning's Avatar
Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lockport, New York, USA
Posts: 3,245
Thanks: 3,178
Thanked 28,385 Times in 2,568 Posts
Images: 72
Default Re: 1667 Otto Langen SN 1 Where is it ?

Wayne. I agree with you as well that the engine in the Deutz museum was the first unit they sold. I am not sure that anyone can be certain that it was actually the first one built. It would be my guess that several prototype versions were used as test muels to develop and perfect the design. Early patent drawings dating from 1864 ( two years prior to exhibiting it at the Paris Expo) show the engine with two rotary spool valves and electric jump spark ignition. If the engine at the Munich is truly No 7 then the one at the powerhouse in Australia is the second oldest one out there. A photocopy of a 1867 brochure ( their first year of production) shows the engine with a fluted cylinder and two bearings blocks rather than the earlier individual design. Also, Lyle Cummins book Internal Fire states that only seven of these were made in 1867. This being the case only a couple were made with the verticle slide rods, fluted cylinder and 4 individual bearing blocks. - Wayne
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10-29-2007, 01:36:59 PM
Wayne Timms Wayne Timms is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Victoria, Australia
Posts: 1,050
Thanks: 1,632
Thanked 2,053 Times in 558 Posts
Default Re: 1667 Otto Langen SN 1 Where is it ?

Hi Wayne,
I have attached the photo I have of the plate on the engine in the Deutsches Museum, Munich. Not sure it will be legible but it says : No 7, Otto & Langen.
Also I attach the Xmas card sent by our friend, I have disguised his identity as I haven't asked for permission.
With reference to the information you mention out of Cummins 'Internal Fire' this graph is not complete. I have the original graph that Cummins copied it from in one of my early German books, I will look for it and then post it.
Regards, Wayne
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	scan0005.jpg
Views:	289
Size:	67.7 KB
ID:	25103   Click image for larger version

Name:	scan0006.jpg
Views:	419
Size:	76.2 KB
ID:	25104  
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 10-30-2007, 06:08:47 PM
Wayne Timms Wayne Timms is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Victoria, Australia
Posts: 1,050
Thanks: 1,632
Thanked 2,053 Times in 558 Posts
Default Re: 1867 Otto Langen SN 1 Where is it ?

Hi Wayne,
Found the graph, see attached, it is a table in Cummins book, page 152 - my mistake. This graph appears in many early German books. As you can see it starts at 1864, not 1867 as claimed by Cummins. My German is not great, but if I read the text correctly, you can see that they built, 1 engine in 1864, 1 engine in 1865 and 1 engine in 1866. Then seven are built in 1867, and their combined hp (PS) is 3 and a half, so all are 1/2 hp. Actually by 1867, 10 engines had been built not the 7 as suggested by Cummins. According to the table the first 1/4 hp was built in 1868, and I have seen no evidence that it was built with a fluted column.

So actually the Deutsches Museum engine, being No7 is definitely 1867, and given the modifications made to the pattern to produce this engine, it means that the other 3 surviving engines are at least 1867 or could be earlier.

I have also attached an original flyer for the engines which I picked up a few years back. You will see that it has had a stamp added after printing with a date of 1867, for the exposition. So they were producing flyers for the engines before winning the expo. Note it is a 4 bearing engine not a mono block, with what appears to be dual slide valve.

My view for what it is worth, in 1868, production increases to 46 engines, it is extremely likely that to deliver these numbers they would have removed the complexity of the fluted column design, given the design of the block would have at least tripled the work required just in moulding.

This is my best guess with the information I have seen to date. I would be happy for someone to shed more light on the subject.
Cheers, Wayne.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	scan0009.jpg
Views:	157
Size:	61.6 KB
ID:	25163   Click image for larger version

Name:	scan0007.jpg
Views:	201
Size:	135.8 KB
ID:	25164  
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 10-30-2007, 10:20:26 PM
Wayne Grenning's Avatar
Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lockport, New York, USA
Posts: 3,245
Thanks: 3,178
Thanked 28,385 Times in 2,568 Posts
Images: 72
Default Re: 1667 Otto Langen SN 1 Where is it ?

Wayne, Excellent info - Thanks. The 1/2 HP engines were the first ones made and there are no documented fluted cylinder examples of different sizes that I am aware of.

I believe the early pre-1867 Otto-Langen Engines varried a bit from the earliest priduction examples ( Sidney, Kinzers, & the Deutz Museum) . I have attached a couple of pictures. The first being a section view of perhaps an 1865 design with the rotary spool valves and jump spark ignition. The second photo is the mechanical model of the kinematic clutch Langen designed in 1865. This was the key that allowed this whole mechanism to take life. You can see the similarity between this and the 1st generation clutch shown in the section of the first picture.






Wayne

Last edited by Wayne Grenning; 10-30-2007 at 11:25:39 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 11-01-2007, 06:17:40 PM
Wayne Timms Wayne Timms is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Victoria, Australia
Posts: 1,050
Thanks: 1,632
Thanked 2,053 Times in 558 Posts
Default Re: 1667 Otto Langen SN 1 Where is it ?

A bit off the topic of number 1 but I thought this might be of interest.
I attach pictures of patents which I have, not sure of how it works but it is a self propelled atmospheric engine.
The patent says 1875 Oct 18 Abel's specifications.
If they ever built it, it would certainly challenge the Damiler Benz story.
Regards,
Wayne
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	tractor.jpg
Views:	193
Size:	25.4 KB
ID:	25268   Click image for larger version

Name:	chain drive.jpg
Views:	152
Size:	23.7 KB
ID:	25269  
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 11-02-2007, 07:29:08 AM
Wayne Grenning's Avatar
Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lockport, New York, USA
Posts: 3,245
Thanks: 3,178
Thanked 28,385 Times in 2,568 Posts
Images: 72
Default Re: 1667 Otto Langen SN 1 Where is it ?

Most interesting. I have never read anything on this device ! Was it patented here in the US or overseas? Is there a book that has more information on it or its operation?
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 11-10-2007, 06:03:05 AM
Wayne Timms Wayne Timms is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Victoria, Australia
Posts: 1,050
Thanks: 1,632
Thanked 2,053 Times in 558 Posts
Default Re: 1667 Otto Langen SN 1 Where is it ?

Hi Wayne,
The patent drawings came with a 15 page booklet explaining all the details of the patent. I have uploaded the front page. Its was patented by Charles Denton Abel in 1875, and there are clear links in the document with Nicolaus August Otto of the Gas Motoren Fabrik-Deutz. The design was patented in England, can’t comment on anywhere else.

The documents were at some time in the Franklin Institute Library.
Regards, Wayne.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Abel patent.jpg
Views:	129
Size:	76.2 KB
ID:	25543  
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

F o r u m Jump

Similar Threads Chosen at Random
Thread Thread Starter F o r u m Replies Last Post
Otto & Langen Bill Hazzard Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion 75 09-30-2017 10:04:21 PM
Otto & Langen gasengineman43 Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion 2 02-15-2016 12:38:22 AM
1867 Otto Langen engine antiquecarman Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion 15 02-16-2010 11:43:15 AM
Otto-langen James L Johnson Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion 27 03-21-2008 10:01:05 PM
Otto Langen Patrick M Livingstone Antique Engine Archives 0 10-06-2001 09:32:14 AM


Use "Ctrl" mouse wheel to change screen size.
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:59:02 AM.

Smokstak and Enginads site search!


All use is subject to our TERMS OF SERVICE
SMOKSTAK® is a Registered Trade Mark - A Community of Antique Engine Enthusiasts
Copyright © 2000 - 2019 by Harry Matthews P.O. Box 5612 - Sarasota, FL 34277