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Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion Meet collectors of hit and miss engines, ask questions about collecting, restoring and showing antique flywheel engines.

Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion

Weber - The Rest of the Story


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  #1  
Old 04-06-2011, 01:21:52 AM
Slocan Kid Slocan Kid is offline
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Default Weber - The Rest of the Story

So, 17 years later...

I finally get down to restoring the Weber and as I always like to read other people's recovery and restoration stories on SmokStak, I thought I'd make my own contribution and post a few photos and the rest of the story.

My previous post (entitled “Need Weber engine info”) told the story of the Weber find and included a few photos of the engine as I found it.

Today's post contains photos of the actual recovery - getting the 2200 lb engine apart and down the mountainside.

The first photo shows the engine half-way dug out of the bank. The second photo is of yours truly, resting against the prize.

The third photo is of my old pal Ed digging the base loose and the fourth photo shows her all freed up. We had to flip the engine upside down to undo the sub-base bolts.

More to come...
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  #2  
Old 04-06-2011, 08:57:31 AM
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Denis Rouleau Denis Rouleau is offline
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Default Re: Weber - The Rest of the Story

Here is the earlier thread about Slocan Kid's WEBER.
Looking forward to pictures of the restored Weber!

http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27664.
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Old 04-06-2011, 11:16:26 AM
HBurk HBurk is offline
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Default Re: Weber - The Rest of the Story

Did the people that you bought it from give you any of the history? Why was it there, etc? Maybe they have the tag off it.
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Old 04-06-2011, 12:07:49 PM
Ironsides Ironsides is offline
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Default Re: Weber - The Rest of the Story

Slocan Kid,be very careful if you don't have the bit of paper showing ownership---I have had that one come back and bite me on the back end!Do not spend any more money on it until you own it clear title.Even now that recovered engine is worth BIG money to people who know what it is worth.Hope it all goes well for you,Norm
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Old 04-06-2011, 12:26:17 PM
Les Layton Les Layton is online now
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Default Re: Weber - The Rest of the Story

Hello We are featuring WEBER engines at Antique Powerland this year & I have dug mine out & am working on it. I sure would like to see yours there also. I need to get some pictures of the valve cages And gov. The pictures we drew years ago have faded & I cannot make them out Les
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Old 04-06-2011, 10:05:15 PM
Slocan Kid Slocan Kid is offline
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Default Re: Weber - The Rest of the Story - Down the Mountain

Here's some photos of gettin' 'er down the mountain...

First photo is of my other old pal, Gary, posing on the mine trail with one of the 428 lb flywheels. We had to re-dig this trail for a few hundred yards before it was at all useable. Hard to tell if this is the flywheel that broke my foot this past November when I was getting all my bits and pieces together to finish this restoration or if perhaps it was the other flywheel. No matter - it laid me up for 8 weeks and I've got a nice stainless steel plate in my foot to give me something to remember her by.

Second photo shows the 307 lb sub base turned in to a handy gardening wheelbarrow. Note the trim physique of 17 years ago - I'd like to restore that.

Photo three is the 454 lb one piece cylinder/crankcase sitting on my custom made push/pull wheelbarrow wheel dolly made just for the occasion, which worked after a fashion, but was by no means a gimme.

Photo four is of us with the engine block after we smartened up after the flywheel incident where we thought we could just slide the flywheel unattended down the mountain side and it would somehow magically come to rest where we wanted it to. Not. Much to our surprise, that flywheel buggered off like a bat out of hell and all we could see below us was small trees being felled like bowling pins scattering. Finally, she hit a tree big enough to actually stop her and we found ourselves having to cut the tree down and carefully rope it down the rest of the way. Good to get the heart pounding. The friction on the rope as Gary leveraged the engine block along was enough to bugger up a good pair of leather gloves but we got the block down with no further ado.

Coming attractions: start of the resto

Hope the photos are in the right order, but you guys'll figure it out...
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Old 04-06-2011, 10:14:58 PM
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Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
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Default Re: Weber - The Rest of the Story - Down the Mountain

Great story! Thanks for sharing - Makes you wonder how just how they got it up there 100 years ago ? - Wayne
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Old 04-06-2011, 10:17:38 PM
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Denis Rouleau Denis Rouleau is offline
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Default Re: Weber - The Rest of the Story

Here is a Weber hoist engine from an 1897 magazine.
Denis Rouleau
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Old 04-06-2011, 10:27:20 PM
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Default Re: Weber - The Rest of the Story

I thought that looked like a mining area on the West Coast. Nice. I should be in that area come late may early June pursuing my geological interests.
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Old 04-06-2011, 10:53:15 PM
Jeff Smith Jeff Smith is offline
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Default Re: Weber - The Rest of the Story

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironsides View Post
Slocan Kid,be very careful if you don't have the bit of paper showing ownership---I have had that one come back and bite me on the back end!Do not spend any more money on it until you own it clear title.Even now that recovered engine is worth BIG money to people who know what it is worth.Hope it all goes well for you,Norm
I have seen a similar thing happen with a very rare antique car, and even though the owner "gave" the car to the car collector, after many years, a lot of hard work and loads of money into the car, the children of the owner took him to court and won the nasty court battle and he had to return the car to the children.
__________________
Jeff
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Old 04-07-2011, 08:57:48 AM
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Mike Lucius Mike Lucius is offline
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Default Re: Weber - The Rest of the Story - Down the Mountain

Wow, for all the work getting it down the hill, I can imagine what it took to get it up. Thanks! Great story.
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Old 04-07-2011, 05:53:20 PM
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Jonathan Widelo Jonathan Widelo is offline
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Default Re: Weber - The Rest of the Story

Slocan Kid,

What a great story ! I would love to see some pictures of the restoration !

~ Jonathan
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Old 04-08-2011, 02:57:25 AM
Slocan Kid Slocan Kid is offline
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Default Re: Weber - The Rest of the Story - In the Machine Shop

From the mountain to the machine shop...

The cylinder and piston were the most expensive part of the restoration.

The cylinder needed to be sleeved but I was leery to hand it over to just any production shop, so when I finally got the money together I sent the cylinder and piston to the coast to my other old pal, Marvin, who, at that time was the machine shop lead hand and a fellow engine collector, ergo, he could be trusted to oversee the machining.

The piston pin bosses were wollered out from running with a loose wrist pin so the piston was line-bored and inserts were made to bring it back to stock dimensions. The piston ring lands were turned true and custom rings were made.

The threads where the wrist pin bearing assembly screws on to the conn rod were hammered so they were welded up and re-cut and the wrist pin bearing was honed and fitted with the new wrist pin.

The water outlet boss on the top of the cylinder had been broken away, so Marv and his guys milled off the remainder, bored it oversized and made a new boss insert with the same profile as the old one.

After the engine's been run up and dialed in, I'll take her apart again and send the flywheels down to Marv's shop to have their faces re-machined to remove some heavy pitting. Marv happens to be the shop manager now - wonder if I'll get a better deal on the shop rate...hmmm...

Next up: valves, carb and other assorted trinkets...
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Old 04-08-2011, 11:03:46 PM
Slocan Kid Slocan Kid is offline
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Default Re: Weber - The Rest of the Story - In the Machine Shop

Denis: thanks for linking to my earlier story

H Burke: nobody knew nothin' - engine was abandoned in 1904

Ironsides & Jeff: no sweat, it's in the bag. Thanks for the caution, though.

Les: Will be there with bells on

Wayne & Mike: teamsters & pack-mules as there was no other means available

Speleausmining: Look me up if you're out this way

Jonathan: Stay tuned

Thanks, boys.
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Old 04-08-2011, 11:35:10 PM
Nathan K. Nathan K. is offline
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Default Re: Weber - The Rest of the Story

Looks like it's coming along nicely, that mountain sure seemed to be attached to that engine!. Sometimes if you turn the flywheels they start to look funny because the rim is thinned out of proportion, one option that I saw on a 20 hp Stickney a few years back that had been recovered from a river is an epoxy filler. The flywheels had been dried-sandblasted-degrease and then JBweld had been pumped on with a form, afterward they where spun against a belt sander to true them up followed with a coat of metallic silver paint and they looked great(without being told that they where filled I would have never guessed), with some of the steel filled epoxy's like Devcon titanium you may not even want to paint them. Hope it helps, Nathan. Ps; looking forward to seeing it in person sometime.
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Old 04-08-2011, 11:41:51 PM
Slocan Kid Slocan Kid is offline
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Default Re: Weber - The Rest of the Story - Endless Bits & Pieces

The devil’s in the details...

The photo with the brass pagoda lookin’ thing is the internal workings of the Weber carb. It’s sitting upside down in the photo.

When the intake stroke occurs, it creates enough vacuum to lift the shaft off the seat, allowing fuel in, which is then atomized as it’s drawn through the multiple brass screens. The amount of fuel admitted to the engine is altered by screwing the brass nut at the bottom of the photo up or down, thus limiting or increasing the lift off the seat.

The carb’s crude, but it must’ve worked ‘cause they didn’t scrap it out.

The cam box was a bit of a bugger as it was not on the same machined plane as the exhaust and intake valve bodies. This created a problem by allowing oil to slobber all over the cam box and out onto the ground. The old miners tried to fix the oil leak by pouring a babbitt filler between the crankcase and the cam box.

The valve guides were milled cockeyed (not parallel to the engine and one tilted up and the other tilted down) and required a re-bore and bushing job.

The intake valve housing (which is facing head-on in the photo) had a fracture in the thin spot where it bolts up to the exhaust valve housing. This required some tricky cast iron welding so as to not burn through and destroy the threads for the plug that closes up the housing. Ditto for the exhaust.

A jig was made up for the conn rod to ensure that the bearings on the big end and wrist pin aligned perfectly, allowing me to tighten up the nut without altering the angles. As the compression ratio can be changed at will, I’ve just set it to a dead reckoning right now and once I figure out where she’s happiest, I’ll put a safety set brass screw to keep the nut from backing off. Hard to believe all that brass was still there after a hundred years of hikers, hunters and hippies.

Don’t touch that dial - will be right back with odd ball engineering and assembly...
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Last edited by Slocan Kid; 04-09-2011 at 11:19:33 AM.
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Old 04-09-2011, 12:05:42 AM
M&WJOE M&WJOE is offline
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Thumbs up Re: Weber - The Rest of the Story - Down the Mountain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Grenning View Post
Great story! Thanks for sharing - Makes you wonder how just how they got it up there 100 years ago ? - Wayne
Wayne, They were a lot stronger then. So I have been told
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Old 04-09-2011, 11:03:34 AM
Les Layton Les Layton is online now
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Default Re: Weber - The Rest of the Story

Hey KID My engine also had the big wad of babbitt behind the timing gear box. It also had four oblong spacers about 3/16 thick that spaced the housing away from the engine bed. Les
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Old 04-09-2011, 10:27:28 PM
Matt Montague Matt Montague is offline
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Default Re: Weber - The Rest of the Story

Hey Kid,
If you have Marv working on it, You have a GOOD MAN helping you! I have seen his work and it is top rate.
Hope that you can bring it down to Lynden as well.
Thanks for the pics.
Matt
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Old 04-12-2011, 01:00:09 AM
Slocan Kid Slocan Kid is offline
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Default Re: Weber - The Rest of the Story - Surprises

And, we’re back...

In spite of the glowing advertising for this engine, I discovered the guys who built this engine cut a few corners and made a few mistakes...

In the photo you can see the top ring land of the piston has a kind of dark spot. When I finished cleaning all the carbon out, I found out they had a hole in their casting and to save the piston they took a piece of red hot steel and placed it in the hole from the inside of the piston and peened the hell out of it from the outside.

Another little mess was that the head didn’t line up concentrically with the cylinder so it was protruding on the one side. Their QC guy simply chiseled down the side of the cylinder until it appeared somewhat smooth.

The tapered keyway on one flywheel was milled from the wrong side. It appears that when they assembled the engine, they thought that seeing’s how they always filled in the counter-weight hollows with a piece of pine and puttied over them, no one would ever know they were 180 degrees apart. Well, the cat’s out of the bag 115 years later!

You can see the depth of corrosion on the crankshaft stub that was stuck into the hillside. Luckily, that’s the absolute worst of it on the steel parts. The part of the flywheels that were buried in the muck have fairly good pitting also, but we likely should be able to machine out 80-90% of it without compromising the look of the flywheels.

The carb is a real pain to adjust as you can’t turn it to regulate the amount of fuel because it rubs up against the exhaust pipe and so you have to remove the little gas primer lever every time you want to adjust the carb. There’s also no way to lock the carb on the threaded brass nut once you’ve found the sweet spot.

There’s some pretty good casting flaws and it appears the whole engine was given a filler coat to pretty her up.

And next up: should have a vid or two of her first start-up...
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