Antique Engines and Old Iron
[Home] - [HELP] - [Forums] - [Library] - [Photo Gallery] - [Groups] - [Classified Ads] - [Subscribe] - [Links] - [Books] - [Sponsors] -

Go Back   SmokStak > SmokStak® Antique Engine Community > Antique Gas Engine Discussion
Forgot Password? Join Us!

Notices

Antique Gas Engine Discussion Meet collectors of hit and miss engines, ask questions about collecting, restoring and showing antique flywheel engines.

Antique Gas Engine Discussion

Weber - The Rest of the Story


this thread has 35 replies and has been viewed 8507 times

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 04-12-2011, 11:42:43 AM
Les Layton Les Layton is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Keizer, Oregon, USA
Posts: 145
Thanks: 1,300
Thanked 88 Times in 60 Posts
Question Re: Weber - The Rest of the Story

well now One of my flywheels is also 180 degrees out. Did you turn yours around, & then find out the key slot was tapered the wrong way?? Does it seem to be balanced ok when running. I'm just getting started on mine. sure is nice to know what you are finding. Les
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #22  
Old 04-15-2011, 01:06:45 AM
Slocan Kid Slocan Kid is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Slocan Valley, BC Canada
Posts: 74
Thanks: 2,543
Thanked 669 Times in 41 Posts
Default Re: Weber - The Rest of the Story - Start-Up!

Sunday, start-up party...

Prior to the big start-up, I hand-primed the engine with a squirt bottle straight into the intake and she took off - as long as I kept fuelling her, she kept running, so I figured it'd be a pretty safe bet she'd run with the original carb in place on Sunday when everyone came to see her first start in 115 years. Uh oh, not so fast...

Sunday morning precisely at 10:00am the spectators showed up for a show. The crew and I coaxed the engine for the next two hours before we could finally encourage her to run for more than two minutes at a time. Happily, most of the spectators were hardy types who weathered the wait well, snooping the property and outbuildings for other interesting treasures while they chowed down on burgers, dogs, cake and coffee.

The carb is killing me. It either floods the engine or starves the engine. There's just no bloody in-between. Earlier my biggest concern was if the hot tube was going to work well as I'd not run one before. Well, the hot tube runs like a hot damn and I can pick and choose the timing like I pick and choose the veggies at the market, but that double-damned carburetor just won't cooperate. I've tried different elevations for the fuel tank, different settings for the needle valve assembly...what I'm finding is that I'm actually metering the fuel with the gas line shut off valve which isn't right but seems to work for now.

When she does run, though, she thumps along quite nicely. Today, after working on her for 4 days, I finally broke down and had to make a muffler out of a 5 gallon pail as I was going through ear plugs like chicklets. This is the loudest engine I've ever been around and no matter what fuel or timing settings, it's still loud. Tonight as I was messing with the carb settings, enough gas accumulated in the muffler to create an explosion such that my lovely wife hung out the kitchen window of the house to see if I'd finally gone on to my great reward in the sky. You ought to see the muffler now - gone from a cylindrical shape to something akin to a medicine ball.

Amazingly, the engine sits dead still while running, even with the 180 degree opposite counter-weight hollows.

I noticed that the piston had no hole drilled in it to allow oil to get to the wrist pin. So, I asked a bunch of different guys I know “Whatdaya think? Should we put a hole or not put a hole?” Some said “Hey, it’s factory - leave it alone” and others said “Better do somethin’ ‘cause she won’t get any oil otherwise.” I went with the latter group. Unfortunately, the former group proved to be the smarter ones. As we were trying to get the engine started, we noticed we didn’t have a lot of compression. Funny thing was, the air bleeding out the back of the piston wasn’t coming from between the piston and the cylinder wall, it was coming out the piston itself. So, I got the lamp, stuck my hand in there, slowly turned the engine over without crushing my wingers, and lo and behold, all that air was coming right out that hole I drilled. Ugh. So, yanked the piston, threw in a brass stud, problem solved. I still don’t know how the wrist pin’s gonna get oiled - perhaps I’ll just have to shut the engine down every 15 minutes to oil ‘er, contrary to the advertising that says she “can run overnight without any attention.” Lesson learned: don’t drill any holes that weren’t there already!

And so, without further ado, here's a link to one of the videos...



Hope you boys enjoy.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04-15-2011, 05:47:56 AM
Wayne Grenning's Avatar
Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lockport, New York, USA
Posts: 3,245
Thanks: 3,178
Thanked 28,385 Times in 2,568 Posts
Images: 72
Default Re: Weber - The Rest of the Story - Start-Up!

Great to see it running. I like it !

The carb on my Weber, although a little different has a perforated flutter valve that gets lifted by the airflow going through it. As it raises it allows fuel to "drain" into the intake airstream. In order to make it work correctly a very crudely made choke has been added to the intake pipe feeding the carb. It almost looks home made as it is nothing more than a piece of sheet metal that slides in and out of a hack saw slot in the pipe. Interesting thing is that almost every Weber I have seen has one of these. I was not able to determine how your carb works from the pictures but maybe this will help?
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 04-15-2011, 11:33:53 PM
Slocan Kid Slocan Kid is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Slocan Valley, BC Canada
Posts: 74
Thanks: 2,543
Thanked 669 Times in 41 Posts
Default Re: Weber - The Rest of the Story - Carb from Hell

Still mucking with the carb...

Followed Wayne Grenning’s advice and put a choke plate in the intake pipe and took off the regular 1/4in shut-off valve and replaced it with a needle valve and I can get it to run for a while but what it does is either misses a hit and then doesn’t pick up again and just runs out or it spits back out through the carb which makes it miss a hit again and then just runs out that way. I tried to meter the fuel to avoid the fuel spitting out the carb but then she just seems to load up on excess fuel. I think the longest run she’s had unattended was about 20 minutes before she craps out.

Am attaching some photos of the carb in the hopes you might have some more thoughts on how to dial this carb in properly...

Appreciate your help.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSCN0799.JPG
Views:	158
Size:	157.3 KB
ID:	104825   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSCN0800.JPG
Views:	160
Size:	121.2 KB
ID:	104826   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSCN0802.JPG
Views:	145
Size:	81.2 KB
ID:	104827   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSCN0803.JPG
Views:	170
Size:	110.2 KB
ID:	104828  
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 04-16-2011, 12:44:31 PM
Wayne Grenning's Avatar
Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lockport, New York, USA
Posts: 3,245
Thanks: 3,178
Thanked 28,385 Times in 2,568 Posts
Images: 72
Default Re: Weber - The Rest of the Story - Carb from Hell

This is different than the carb on my Weber. How does the fuel get introduced in the air stream? Is it controlled by a needle valve or float?
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 04-16-2011, 01:58:30 PM
Slocan Kid Slocan Kid is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Slocan Valley, BC Canada
Posts: 74
Thanks: 2,543
Thanked 669 Times in 41 Posts
Default Re: Weber - The Rest of the Story - Still Carbbed

Wayne, thanks for your interest and response.

To more fully explain the carb photos in my previous post: the first photo shows looking down the carb barrel to the needle valve seat which has been recut and works well.

The second photo shows the needle valve with the atomizer plates attached. It sits down inside the barrel. The needle valve rod is new and is cut at the same exact length as the original. The atomizer plates are in the same sequence and at the same location on the rod as original. The needle face is fitted to the barrel seat.

The third photo shows the brass nut which has a guide hole in it's centre which allows the nut to screw down over top of the needle valve assembly. The further it's screwed down, the less lift allowed off the needle valve seat. If the brass nut is screwed fully into the barrel until it stops, the needle valve is fully seated and not allowed to rise, so that's the start point. I've tried literally every 1/4 turn all the way up to over an eighth of an inch needle lift...

The yellow arrow on the last photo indicates where the fuel enters under gravity pressure of approximately 5 feet as shown in the brochures. This is where I installed a needle valve rather than a plain globe valve to try and meter the amount of fuel more precisely. This is what I'm not understanding, as I'm thinking we shouldn't have to meter it here at all, the needle valve should be doing that...?

Have included a photo of the whole carb assembly in place. Note the gap between the brass nut and the top of the carb barrel is approximately one eighth inch which is a lot of lift. To start the engine initially, you must pull down on the little lever on the upper carb barrel which lifts the needle valve off it’s seat, allowing a charge of fuel into the base of the carb and off she goes...she does start pretty easy, it’s just keeping her going that’s the tough part...
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSCN0804.JPG
Views:	172
Size:	182.8 KB
ID:	104833  
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 04-16-2011, 03:12:21 PM
GlenK GlenK is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Vandergrift, Pennsylvania, USA
Posts: 620
Thanks: 500
Thanked 470 Times in 209 Posts
Default Re: Weber - The Rest of the Story

What holds the needle down , just the weight of it ? This is similar to the mixer on the Ottawa , and it has a spring to hold it down . It's a lot stronger than you would think . but if it's not strong enough ,it floods out . I don't know if this would help or not . Glen
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 04-16-2011, 04:08:09 PM
Wayne Grenning's Avatar
Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lockport, New York, USA
Posts: 3,245
Thanks: 3,178
Thanked 28,385 Times in 2,568 Posts
Images: 72
Default Re: Weber - The Rest of the Story

Interesting !!! Now I fully understand. It actually operates very similar to the carb in my Weber. On the later engines the fuel level is only an inch or so above the seat of the atomizer valve which is why the need for the choke plate. Is it possible the 5 feet head pressure for the fuel tank applies to only the hot tube burner fuel source? They DO require that to work properly. Possibly the carburetor requires less head? It may be an interesting exercise to hook up a temporary fuel tank with a flexible line and see if lowering it to a point where the fuel level is only a couple inches above the atomizer improves it operation ? Anyway my thoughts at this point.... - Wayne
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Wayne Grenning For This Post:
  #29  
Old 04-16-2011, 05:13:35 PM
Martin Gaudet Martin Gaudet is offline
Registered-II
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Bainsville, Ontario
Posts: 309
Thanks: 165
Thanked 296 Times in 118 Posts
Default Re: Weber - The Rest of the Story - Still Carbbed

Slocan Kid,
I'm thinking along the lines of grk957 about the spring:
Does the end of the old rod or any other part show wear paterns of a spring?
it would make sense to me to have the spool held down on the needle by a spring until the engine sucked.
Cheers,
Martin
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 04-16-2011, 05:40:32 PM
Steve Webre Steve Webre is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Broussard, LA, USA
Posts: 241
Thanks: 448
Thanked 191 Times in 111 Posts
Default Re: Weber - The Rest of the Story

Hey Slocan!

Think Wayne is on the right track. I'd rig up a "movable" tank and experiment w/ head pressures.

I'd also check to make sure those internals are original. Somone might have gotten creative over the years that is hurting you now. Keep us informed!

---------- Post added at 04:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:32 PM ----------

A long shot, but it gave me fits some years back...

Have the same type of carb internals on my Weber Jr but someone had modified/repaired the "needle valve" so that it was just barely staying engaged in the hole in the cap that keeps the whole contraption centered.

Every once in a while, it would "catch" and not allow the internals to lift properly or stick open and flood. Solution was to make a slightly longer shaft that rode smoothly in the cap.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 04-17-2011, 07:17:30 PM
Chik Weid Chik Weid is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: West Kootenays, BC, Canada
Posts: 1
Thanks: 2
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: Weber - The Rest of the Story - Start-Up!

Well done, Kid !!!
Where'd you find the original oilers?

Sorry to hear about your carb problems - remember:

"It's always darkest just before it goes pitch black"

~ Chik

---------- Post added at 04:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:13 PM ----------

If I'd known there were hamburgers I would have come... and brought all your North Slocan friends!
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 04-18-2011, 10:41:42 AM
Slocan Kid Slocan Kid is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Slocan Valley, BC Canada
Posts: 74
Thanks: 2,543
Thanked 669 Times in 41 Posts
Default Re: Weber - The Rest of the Story - Still Carbbed

To update:

I tried everybody's suggestions - thanks very much, boys!

I put a very light spring on top of the atomizer needle valve - didn't seem to make much difference.

I checked closely and the original rod didn't show any signs at all of a spring being there, but it sounded like a good possibility so I tried it out and the spring is still in place.

From the start I've been using unleaded regular gas for the engine and white gas for the hot tube burner (at $16/gal white gas is just to damned expensive to run both the engine & hot tube) and this way I've been able to isolate the hot tube's operation from the engine's operation. I've tried different heights for the fuel tank and have found that approximately 4.5 - 5 ft elevation seems to work the best.

The needle valve sure appears to be original. I had the same problem with the brass nut on top, as I screwed it down I caught the edge of the hole with the top of the rod and sure enough, I scuffed it so there was a shoulder and of course, the rod wouldn't move freely up and down, so I fixed that one.

After countless attempts, your help and much brain drain, I started to notice a pattern: I would start the engine, throttle the fuel back to minimal, she would pick up speed, start locking out, continue on for a minute or two and then miss and then just coast down to nearly a stop. Then she would pick up again with powerful hits. It finally occurred to me I remembered reading that some hot tube engines need to have a load on them to make them run right. With that bright idea in mind, I grabbed a 2x4 and the next time she coughed, slowed down and picked up again, I jammed that 2x4 under the offside flywheel and lo and behold, she hit every time, no missed suctions, no missed hits and made lots of sawdust.

Have a look...



And thanks, again for your input.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 04-18-2011, 04:13:39 PM
Keith Keith is offline
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Wrightsville, Pennsylvania
Posts: 234
Thanks: 809
Thanked 332 Times in 81 Posts
Default Re: Weber - The Rest of the Story - Still Carbbed

Any chance the brass threaded guide, on top, was adjusted to control the amount of lift for the needle? There appears to be a collar that restricts the upward travel.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 10-09-2011, 11:50:31 PM
Robt.'s Avatar
Robt. Robt. is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 542
Thanks: 79
Thanked 183 Times in 86 Posts
Default Re: Weber - The Rest of the Story - Start-Up!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slocan Kid View Post
I noticed that the piston had no hole drilled in it to allow oil to get to the wrist pin. So, I asked a bunch of different guys I know “Whatdaya think? Should we put a hole or not put a hole?” Some said “Hey, it’s factory - leave it alone” and others said “Better do somethin’ ‘cause she won’t get any oil otherwise.” I went with the latter group. Unfortunately, the former group proved to be the smarter ones. As we were trying to get the engine started, we noticed we didn’t have a lot of compression. Funny thing was, the air bleeding out the back of the piston wasn’t coming from between the piston and the cylinder wall, it was coming out the piston itself. So, I got the lamp, stuck my hand in there, slowly turned the engine over without crushing my wingers, and lo and behold, all that air was coming right out that hole I drilled. Ugh. So, yanked the piston, threw in a brass stud, problem solved. I still don’t know how the wrist pin’s gonna get oiled - perhaps I’ll just have to shut the engine down every 15 minutes to oil ‘er, contrary to the advertising that says she “can run overnight without any attention.” Lesson learned: don’t drill any holes that weren’t there already!
Could it be that that hole under the top piston ring that you felt to be a factory repair of a casting blow hole was actually intended to permit oil to drip onto the wrist pin? Perhaps as the compression on the engine began to decline, the previous users plugged the hole, thinking that would help? The plug did look like the square head of an old bolt to me.

PS: forget that idea! I just looked at the photos again and I see the hole is off center and definitely a big blow hole, but what's the clean little hole at right angles to the wrist pin in this photo?

Incidentally, did you find out what mine this engine was used at, and what it drove originally? I guess the shaft of the mine must have been close by; buried by a landslide perhaps? Maybe that's the real treasure still there in the "Silvery Slocan"?!
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	P1010073.jpg
Views:	67
Size:	137.5 KB
ID:	117983  

Last edited by Robt.; 10-10-2011 at 12:18:47 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 10-10-2011, 02:49:22 AM
Slocan Kid Slocan Kid is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Slocan Valley, BC Canada
Posts: 74
Thanks: 2,543
Thanked 669 Times in 41 Posts
Default Re: Weber - The Rest of the Story - Start-Up!

Robt that little hole is the one I put in to allow oil to get to the wrist pin right between the two piston rings and directly above the pin which I shortly thereafter plugged. In hindsight I should have put it way down the skirt and fitted a brass tube so the oil would flow to the wrist pin similar to a fairbanks type n arrangement. I'm going to do that this fall after the last of the show season is over.
I do know the name of the mine which I am not at liberty to disclose at this time..."ahem".
What I can tell you is this engine according to my research is rated at five horsepower which is far to small to run a compressor to run rock drills with so I figure it either ran a blower or a pump. I opened up the portal this summer hoping to answer the question, it took me two days of digging to get through all the sluff that had slide down the face. This tunnel was sealed off nearly to the top and full up with water so it was quite a scene when I knocked down the last portion holding back the flood, I wonder how many gallons of water in 6'x6' by at least 200' ? I'll tell ya LOTS. Went back the next weekend with a candle ( bad air detector) and a good flashlight and visions of brass tagged ore cars and maybe even a Weber hoisting engine dancing in my head , got in about 160 feet and hit some bad caving and really loose side walls and deep water behind the caving so made the decision to go no further. No brass tags ,no hoist ,no blower, no pump but a guys always gotta check. Thats ok I know that at least two and possible three Weber hoisting engines were used in the Slocan I just gotta keep scratching around
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Slocan Kid For This Post:
  #36  
Old 10-10-2011, 01:05:17 PM
Kevin O. Pulver Kevin O. Pulver is offline
Email NOT Working
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Kenesaw, Nebraska USA
Posts: 4,256
Thanks: 1,212
Thanked 1,979 Times in 1,200 Posts
Default Re: Weber - The Rest of the Story

Thanks for the pix and story.
For enough money, you can buy a Weber engine, but you can't buy a personal experience and story to go with it. The barn fresh engines are great and all, but nothing like one that needs recovered and restored! Crawling back in that mine would take more guts than a baloney factory.
Kevin
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

F o r u m Jump

Similar Threads Chosen at Random
Thread Thread Starter F o r u m Replies Last Post
The rest of the (Witte) story... ronm Vintage Diesel and Oil Stationary Engines 0 12-28-2008 12:53:50 PM
The rest of the story---FINDS Ihorse Antique Gas Engine Discussion 12 11-10-2007 12:18:10 AM
And now for the rest of the story Marty Antique Engine Archives 3 05-13-2003 09:00:08 PM
And now!!, The rest of the story Steve Gerot Antique Engine Archives 7 04-12-2002 01:20:52 AM


Use "Ctrl" mouse wheel to change screen size.
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:34:19 AM.

Smokstak and Enginads site search!


All use is subject to our TERMS OF SERVICE
SMOKSTAK® is a Registered Trade Mark - A Community of Antique Engine Enthusiasts
Copyright © 2000 - 2019 by Harry Matthews P.O. Box 5612 - Sarasota, FL 34277