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CASE? small horizontal twin


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  #61  
Old 03-08-2014, 12:52:37 PM
makoman1860 makoman1860 is offline
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Default Re: CASE? small horizontal twin

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkyocom View Post
About time you came up with something.
You got time to argue this point for hours but not the time to prove it in a "GRADE SCHOOL" test, are you afraid of something?
I'll do the )&&$^&#&^ test (*^(*&%.
I will post results, at least if I am wrong I will admit it.
As would I if I was wrong. I am not spending hours with this, just a couple minutes here and there. If you are interested in this subject that much and are wanting to know the truth for yourself, I would hope you would do it justice and not bias the test just to make yourself look right. The hotplate test is a pretty good one, just be sure to not paint the bottoms of the objects. Both coatings should be of the same type, thickness and sheen. I really do not understand why you have the need to curse on a forum like this and find it odd. Im am not trying to argue with you, just educate.
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Old 03-08-2014, 04:57:11 PM
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Default Re: CASE? small horizontal twin

^ Every link you have posted says Black is the best at absorbing and dispersing heat! Read the very first paragraph of the link you provided in post 68. If the "ROCKET" scientists at NASA say it's the best color. I will stick with them. Race engines are painted black for the same reason as are the older radiator's, starters and generators. Bob
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  #63  
Old 03-08-2014, 05:40:15 PM
makoman1860 makoman1860 is offline
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Default Re: CASE? small horizontal twin

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^ Every link you have posted says Black is the best at absorbing and dispersing heat! Read the very first paragraph of the link you provided in post 68. If the "ROCKET" scientists at NASA say it's the best color. I will stick with them. Race engines are painted black for the same reason as are the older radiator's, starters and generators. Bob
Bob,
In the like I provided in post 68 the term "black" is used in reguards to how well a surface emits IR radiation, not a color that you and I see. A "black" surface is the best at emitting IR radiation, however that "black" surface might be the visual color white, or grey, or red. You can have a black color paint thats an good emitter, then dope it with ferric oxide and copper oxide and make it better. Do you see why its confusing for people? Now take the subject of the cooling of an air cooled engine, the vast majority of the cooling is conduction from the chamber walls to the fins out surface and then from the fins outer surface to ambient air by convection. Radiant heats plays just a tiny part of cooling, so much so that taking a bare aluminum cylinder head, and painting it to increase its E value, will actually cost more in reduced heat transfer by conduction and raise the head temperature. I know of no professional race engine designers that paint their engines a specific visual color to make them run cooler. When we use an IR thermometer to measure the temperature of a surface, we are measuring the radiant heat output. If you have a block of steel that heated to 200F painted gloss white on one side and gloss black on the other, the IR temperature measurement would be the same on both surfaces ( or realllly close ). If a third side was painted with silver paint the IR measurement would be lower on that side since silver does not emit as well. In fact here is some info on IR temperature measuring. Enjoy. http://www.deltat.com/pdf/Infrared%2...ansmission.pdf

Last edited by makoman1860; 03-08-2014 at 05:57:20 PM.
  #64  
Old 03-08-2014, 08:40:50 PM
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Thankyou Mr. Bob
He will argue the point, but as of yet has failed to show any proof. So this actually impeaches him for he cannot prove what he says. Impeachment negates his word. There is no way I can make sure coatings are same thickness. For me to do a test, he would still poo-poo on it.
Thankyou again Mr. Bob

Like they say
PUT UP OR SHUT UP !!!!!!!

---------- Post added at 07:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:10 PM ----------

I read in some of the things I posted is that black body objects do not exist on earth

---------- Post added at 07:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:15 PM ----------

And now here's somthing you'll really enjoy
back to the engine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qEG7...ature=youtu.be

---------- Post added at 07:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:23 PM ----------

The case turned out to be aluminum
I thought it was iron

There was about 1/8 of an inch of thick rotten oil scuzz on the bottom...this thing needed a good colon cleaning...LOL

A look on the inside
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3N6o7...ature=youtu.be

I found the original color of the engine case, would anyone like to guess what color it was?

Is this considered a BOXER engine?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ArYr...ature=youtu.be
Thanks guys

---------- Post added at 09:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:04 PM ----------

There was a keeper ring missing on one side of the wrist pin on #1 piston. Built on Monday?
  #65  
Old 03-10-2014, 12:29:56 AM
makoman1860 makoman1860 is offline
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Default Re: CASE? small horizontal twin

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkyocom View Post
I found the original color of the engine case, would anyone like to guess what color it was?

Is this considered a BOXER engine?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ArYr...ature=youtu.be
Thanks guys

---------- Post added at 09:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:04 PM ----------

There was a keeper ring missing on one side of the wrist pin on #1 piston. Built on Monday?
Yes "boxer" is used as slang for any engine of an opposed piston configuration where pairs of pistons reach TDC at the same time. There does not appear to be any method of oiling on this engine from the pictures I have seen. How Far up the crankcase are you setting the oil level? The more I look, the more this thinks looks like a half finished prototype or maybe a school project. Judging by the era of the components, small engine development was pretty far along, and well beyond anything like this.

Last edited by makoman1860; 03-10-2014 at 12:41:58 AM.
  #66  
Old 03-10-2014, 07:43:29 AM
jkyocom jkyocom is offline
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Default Re: CASE? small horizontal twin

For Case to apply for a patent on the base does not sound like a school project. To much $$$ involved.

---------- Post added at 07:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:54 AM ----------

The way this engine works is, when one side is in the combustion , the other is in the exhaust, since it has only one cam lobe
  #67  
Old 03-10-2014, 07:50:01 AM
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Default Re: CASE? small horizontal twin

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Originally Posted by jkyocom View Post
For Case to apply for a patent on the base does not sound like a school project. To much $$$ involved.
did you find a patent for the base from case?
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  #68  
Old 03-10-2014, 12:20:07 PM
makoman1860 makoman1860 is offline
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Default Re: CASE? small horizontal twin

The whole thing just seems goofy. The cylinders and heads seem to be along the lines of excelsior motorcycle, the rods, ignition and carb are along the lines of an outboard, The crankcase seems to be intended for industrial, yet there is no lube system....not even a decent spash type, not to mention no cooling system or governor. The fuel tank seems much later in the way it was fabricated, maybe the 1960's. The crank looks very crude yet the camshaft machining is quite complicated. Maybe a junkyard special. Oh and Joe, alternate fire is pretty much the norm for an opposed engine, nothing special there.

Last edited by makoman1860; 03-10-2014 at 03:27:11 PM.
  #69  
Old 03-10-2014, 04:15:56 PM
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Default Re: CASE? small horizontal twin

I dug and dug in the pat office and with no pat number or date I did not find it. I sat here for hours searching with no luck.

Inside the rear of the case, the cam gear picks up the oil and there is a part that keeps it from slinging to one side and aims to the front.

It's a Heinze #57

Like I said from the beginning, This engine makes no sense.
But it's purdy!!!

---------- Post added at 04:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:11 PM ----------

can anyone date the original muffler...NELSON???
  #70  
Old 03-10-2014, 04:59:27 PM
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Default Re: CASE? small horizontal twin

I do not believe anything in regards to black painted objects being a better transmitter of heat. The color of starters, generators, engines, cylinders is all up to the manufacturer of the engine. There are many very successful engine manufacturers throughout history who have had engines, cylinders, turbines, painted other than black. Caterpillar, Deutz, Hall Scott, GE, Curtiss Wright, just to name a few. Perhaps the problem is the nature of the field. In science and computer land, a 0.001% difference in anything from clock speed to better thermal adhesives, are now the best thing in the world because they are "faster" and can dissipate that much "more" heat than the other competitor. I used to offer heatsink/processor lapping, and custom copper shim manufacturing for high end laptop and desktop processors, on numerous computer forums, but I got out of it because I could not stand the nature of the people. Complaints about 1*F higher operating temperatures, the use of not brand XYZ thermal adhesive, and whatnot. Nobody needs such nuisances in life when all you are trying to do is offer a service.

You will find in any hobby, purists and hot rodders. You joined smokstak a forum which caters to old engines and purists. I love my engines all dolled up and pretty like anyone else, but I cannot force myself to take paint stripper or a bead blaster to anything super rare or one off.

I think you have a really cool little engine. I like the design of it because it is different. Is it homemade, a prototype of a factory produced engine? perhaps we might never know, but it sure is nice to look at and listen to.

Hopefully everyone can calm down and just focus on the cool little engine at hand,

Chris
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  #71  
Old 03-10-2014, 07:49:09 PM
Antiquebriggsguy Antiquebriggsguy is offline
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Default Re: CASE? small horizontal twin

sometime in the 30's for the nelson bros. muffler
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  #72  
Old 03-10-2014, 08:20:23 PM
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Default Re: CASE? small horizontal twin

Quote:
Originally Posted by makoman1860 View Post
Both coatings should be of the same type, thickness and sheen.
Therein lies just one of the problems with the 'test' in the link you provided.

It didn't compare a white painted surface to a black painted surface with equal paint thicknesses. It compared a painted surface to a bare aluminum surface. And even though it was painted White, the painted one still cooled faster than the bare aluminum which at first was a little surprising. If they had painted it black though, it would have cooled even faster yet.

That website was right in stating that shiny surfaces (like polished aluminum) reflect visible AND infrared light instead of absorbing it, but then they confuse the issue by switching the subject over to Thermal Radiation which is a little different than infrared radiation even though thermal imaging is done in the infrared spectrum for 'seeing through walls'.

Other tests have been done over the years comparing paint colors for thermal radiation and found that Black paint radiates more heat than white or yellow or any other lighter colors. That is why they paint radiators BLACK and not red or yellow. A bright Red radiator sure would Look Cool on a show car, but it wouldn't be practical in something that runs and gets driven daily generating lots of engine heat. Bottom Line..... They paint radiators Black for a reason and it ISN'T just to 'Look Nice'. You want a radiator to radiate heat away from itself to aid in the cooling. Dark blue or green would also radiate more heat than light blue or green, but still not as good as black.

Yes different companies paint their engines different colors including Caterpillar yellow and Chevy orange and Ford blue and John Deere green, but they all used black for the radiators up until they started using aluminum to replace the brass/copper radiators, though many of the earlier aluminum were still painted black. The main reason they don't paint the new aluminum radiators is because they have such thin walled tubing and thin cooling fins that any paint at all in any color would insulate it more than it would help radiate any extra heat from it. Also, aluminum transfers heat better than copper/brass carrying the heat from the coolant inside to the outer edges of the cooling fins allowing the passing air to carry the heat away faster than the slower conducting copper/brass tubes and fins did so they can get by without the need for the black paint.

When you shut the hood and seal the engine away from the sunlight, visible light and infrared light have nothing to do with the situation, but a black radiator will still radiate more thermal energy than a white radiator. It's been tested and proven many times over. Granted though, a 1/4 inch thick layer of black paint will likely overheat your engine where a 2 mil thick layer of white wouldn't because a 1/4 inch thick layer of paint in any color would insulate it and block the airflow through the cooling fins.

Now...... Back to the original subject of this thread. That is a Very Neat little engine you have there, and I would Love to have it myself, IF I could afford it which I can't at this time. Sorry to see that you were offended by those that complained about the colors you painted it and the comments on what you have in it versus what you might get out of it. Everyone has their own opinion and like it or not, mine sides with those that like it better unpainted or as a second choice repainted in the original colors. In this 'Case' (pun intended), I would guess it maybe would have originally been painted a dark green as that was a standard Case color, but being air cooled it may have been black,or a green crank case with black cylinders.

But whose to say given the age.

That being said.....paint is easy to remove. Even with the bead blasting, as long as you didn't take a grinder and deburr and polish everything on it, you didn't hurt it that bad.
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  #73  
Old 03-10-2014, 09:08:00 PM
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Default Re: CASE? small horizontal twin

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Originally Posted by jkyocom View Post
I dug and dug in the pat office and with no pat number or date I did not find it. I sat here for hours searching with no luck.
Then what makes you think that Case applied for a patent on the base? Does it say, "patent applied for"?
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  #74  
Old 03-10-2014, 10:07:26 PM
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Default Re: CASE? small horizontal twin

To the right of the Case nameplate is stamped PAT. PEND.
I have already mentioned that.
I know my way around the pat site, it took 3 months to find a pat. on my 1918 Bowser Oil Pump Cabinet, with no number,
so it is like a needle in ...well...you know.
I have tried every combination of terms I know to try to find the pat. and have looked at hundreds of pages.

Also , again, the intake says Appleton Electric Pat Pend

Wico pat 1938 for the flywheel

Tillotson carb designated to the Johnson Iron Horse engine 1938-1941.

The old timer,( in his 80's?) hit & miss guy that has my flywheel right now, instantly, on site alone identified that as being the iron horse carb. But said he had NEVER seen an engine like that and that CASE had thier fingerprints on it somehow. He also took pictures of it since it was so unusual.

---------- Post added at 10:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:58 PM ----------

@ OTTO
I found the original color of the case was Black ...go figure
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Old 03-10-2014, 10:53:11 PM
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Default Re: CASE? small horizontal twin

"Appleton Electric" means the intake is made of electrical conduit. They are a major name in that game.

I agree with makoman1860 that this engine seems like a prototype or engineering school project. If it's the latter, it more than likely came from here. http://engineering.case.edu/about/history

I do not see JI Case having any involvement in a project like this engine, but that's just my opinion.
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Old 03-10-2014, 11:49:48 PM
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Default Re: CASE? small horizontal twin

How many industrial manufacturers have the name of CASE?,
that would apply for a patent for an engine base
I don't think CASE made the engine or anything else except the base.
It was probably assigned to the j i case co to adapt this engine for thier need..I just can't find it.
  #77  
Old 03-11-2014, 12:07:08 AM
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Default Re: CASE? small horizontal twin

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It was probably assigned to the j i case co to adapt this engine for thier need..I just can't find it.
That's exactly why I don't think your Case emblem has anything to do with JI Case. They didn't make anything, that I'm aware of, that would use an engine like that during the time period that it was built. They were building farm tractors and implements. Big stuff, not lawn and garden equipment.
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  #78  
Old 03-11-2014, 03:56:36 AM
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Default Re: CASE? small horizontal twin

thanks for the video on the internals i have been stiring the brain to workout how the single push pull rod worked and were going to email you to ask if you had any photos or or if you had even got it that far down
now i dont have to the reason i ask is that i build miniature engines and were going to see if i could build in small scale now i see how it works i can start drawing will let you know how it goes
i managed to get some stills (freeze frames) from your video of it running but some photos would be nice if you could awesome little engine thanks again
i could not see but i figure there must be a spring behind the cam follower or does it just rely on that external long spring
regards john

Last edited by The Engineer; 03-11-2014 at 04:09:38 AM.
  #79  
Old 03-11-2014, 09:00:00 AM
jkyocom jkyocom is offline
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Default Re: CASE? small horizontal twin

external spring pulls and drops lifter into dimple to open intake.
Mr John..I would have to send pics to your email, I'm to old & slow to figure how to post pices here.

I looked @ the school info but why would a school pat a part for a project?

If you haven't spent months in the pat site , you don't know that some patents were filed under the names of the inventor and the ideas were later sold to a company.

As in the case of my oil pump, BOWSER did not assingn this pat, file , or had it granted. Someone else did and BOWSER bought the design thus no trail starting with BOWSER or anything mentioned in the description pertaining to The Bowser Co. That is why it took months to find it.

Could be the same with this base, CASE may not have filed the pat, that is why I can't find it. If it is "pending" the pat. is there, but where to find it is anyones guess.
You can't say it is NOT CASE untill you can prove otherwise.
But you can say it was possibly made for CASE.
No offense, but,
Just because you THINK something does not make it fact, merely speculation.

---------- Post added at 07:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:56 AM ----------

If I go back and omit the word CASE from the search I might find it

---------- Post added at 08:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:58 AM ----------

One more thing about the Bowser oil pump....

Even though Bowser did not assign it, or invent it,
BOWSER still put thier name on it. PROUDLY

---------- Post added at 09:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:55 AM ----------

The "guts" pat. numbers are on ID the tag, but not the cabinet pat numbers. that is why I had so much trouble finding it.
The "guts" pats date back to 1910
the cabinet was filed 1917, granted 1918.
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Old 03-11-2014, 09:04:53 AM
makoman1860 makoman1860 is offline
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Default Re: CASE? small horizontal twin

Joe,
I would not get too hung up on a "pat applied for" stamp. I have seen it stamped on things many times as a form of "tongue in cheek" humor. Every piece of this engine except the valvetrain dates to the 1940's, even the conduit intake. The Heads and rockers appear to be earlier production parts, maybe the 1920's motorcycle. Excelsior had a valvetrain of some similiarity, as did glen Curtis with both motorcycle and aviation engines from the WWI era. Deffinately obsolete by the era of the rest of the parts. Basicly I don't see anything that from that time frame that would have been "new" and worthy of a real patent. A bunch of engineering school kids building up an engine from the scrap yard, casting a crankcase, and base and machining up a crude crank, that I can see. It might be worth contacting the school and seeing if they have any archives.
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