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Small Air Cooled Gasoline Engines Briggs & Stratton, Clinton, Lauson, Maytag, Nelson, Wisconsin and other small air cooled engines. Sub forums for mowers, scooters and powered eqipment.

Small Air Cooled Gasoline Engines

Leaded fuel For Old Iron


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  #21  
Old 12-24-2007, 10:12:50 AM
Stephen Girouard Stephen Girouard is offline
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Default Re: Leaded fuel For Old Iron

that casing head gasoline is petroeum distillates, some oilfield guys used to convert a pickup by puttin 2 head gaskets , a large fuel filter, retard timein till it only pinged a little on excelleration. it was a byproduct and was stored at the well and trucked off, probably sold as coleman fuel or somethin. the trucks had a shorter engine life and low performance i'v converted afew til the oxygen sensors and electronic engime management came about about the early 80's , got it from the stotage tank and had to use a little regular gas mixed in , but it was free gas, it cant be taken & used at the location anymore , its elegal and newed vehicles wont run at all on even a small amout of it,,,,,,
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  #22  
Old 12-24-2007, 11:01:05 AM
Patrick McNallen Patrick McNallen is offline
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Default Re: Leaded fuel For Old Iron

I built some low compression Ford 390 FE engines for natual gasoline, but I didn't like the results since they had lousy power and drank gas. I wound up using 10.5: 1 pistons and the small chamber mid 60s heads, hard seats on the exhaust, stainless undercut valves, and bronze guides with a good 4V intake and "RV" cam. This gave an engine with good power and throttle response, dead smooth idle, and good fuel economy. When running low octane fuel, I'd just keep off the throttle and use the clutch to stop the engine. You could fill up on premium and the thing would put out around 300 HP. I used 2 gas tanks and ran store-bought gas around town and natural on the highway. You can actually get more power with an engine like this on the low octane gas than with a low compression engine, you just have to ride the throttle to keep it from knocking. When it just begins to knock, that is all the power you can get from the fuel you are running right then. I ran one of these engines over 200,000 miles, mostly on straight drip, with no problems at all. The use of double head gaskets, short stroke crank, or using low compression height pistons eliminates the "quench area" in the combustion chamber and contributes to knocking. Running the timing way late gives you lower power and a hotter combustion chamber and exhaust valve, which contributes to knocking.
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  #23  
Old 12-24-2007, 11:10:29 AM
Virginia Mike Virginia Mike is offline
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Default Re: Leaded fuel For Old Iron

I was surprised when the owners manual for my 1957 David bradley garden tractor with a Briggs engine called for unleaded gas.
Best,
Mike
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  #24  
Old 12-24-2007, 11:17:12 AM
Patrick McNallen Patrick McNallen is offline
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Default Re: Leaded fuel For Old Iron

Must have been in cahoots with Amoco! Unleaded gas was hard to find in 1957 or 1967, for that matter. Any manual I have ever seen for older Briggs engines calls for regular gasoline, which in the U.S. (until the mid 1970s) was leaded gasoline. I have run many a gallon of leaded gasoline through Briggs engines with no problems whatsoever.
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  #25  
Old 12-24-2007, 04:45:47 PM
bill chasser bill chasser is offline
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Default Re: Leaded fuel For Old Iron

Thanks Patrick for setting me a striaght after doing a faceplant into the dirt. I should have known better. I run 11.5:1 compression on my '62 409s on regular pump gas when I drove it regularly. I didn't have detonation problems with it because the design of the combustion chambers puts most of it in the cylinder itself. The valves are unshrouded by design with a piston that doesn't have a popup design like the high compression pistons on mouse and rat motors allowing a better mixture through out the entire cylinder. Timing does have a great deal to do with it as does atmospheric conditions operating temps, eng loading and a host of other variables that you so graciously laid out. I was being too simplistic in my answer and blame it on the late hour I was writing and not putting a great deal of thought into my answer. My Bad!!! I will endeavor to be a more thoughtful poster in the future Merry Christmas every one...

Bill
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  #26  
Old 12-24-2007, 06:38:00 PM
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Bill Geyer Bill Geyer is offline
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Default Re: Leaded fuel For Old Iron

In 1972 I bought a brand new water pump with a 3 HP Briggs. The Briggs manual that came with it specified unleaded. Which I used. I was careful to set the throttle less than 50 per cent. The valve guides lasted 2 week ends Took it in for warranty, dealer reamed plain block guides and installed service guides, and it lasted two more week ends. Dealer wouldn't fix it so I reamed out guides and installed 1/8" brass pipe nipples and reamed to fit. It lasted three weekends. The Jacuzzi dealer that sold it to me felt so bad they put an electric motor on it at their cost. So then I had to get electric service installed. I have never seen much valve trouble out of Briggs except for that one.
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  #27  
Old 12-25-2007, 12:31:19 PM
A Louck A Louck is offline
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Default Re: Leaded fuel For Old Iron

In what proportions do you mix the Tololulene & gas? Wouldn't most Hit & Miss engines be less than 10:1 compression? Al
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  #28  
Old 12-25-2007, 04:33:53 PM
Patrick McNallen Patrick McNallen is offline
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Default Re: Leaded fuel For Old Iron

Hit/Miss engines don't need high octane gas, leaded or otherwise. Toluene will raise octane in gasoline some, but it costs a lot of money nowdays and it could cause problems in any kind of rubber fuel line or diaphragm fuel pump, and some modern plastic manifolds, gas tanks, carb floats, etc. might suffer from contact with it. An antique engine with a fuel pump might have packing problems. It seems to cause most "rubber" to dry out and fail if you put much of it in the gas. It is a main ingredient in B- 12 Chemtool and probably other solvents and additives. It will clean carbon out of combustion chambers and may help valve sticking caused by varnish on intake valve stems. I wouldn't put it in a diesel. If you are very careful, you can use it to help clean out a sludged-up crankcase and sticky lifters and rocker shafts, but that is a risky deal at best. Changing the oil and filter more often and using Marvel Oil is effective and a lot safer.
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  #29  
Old 12-25-2007, 06:22:43 PM
Stephen Girouard Stephen Girouard is offline
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Default Re: Leaded fuel For Old Iron

i was under the impression the higher the compression the higher the octane requirement, thats what the engineers and field teatin told for years , patrick your the same guy who told me kerosene in my diesel would kill my performance, you should pattent some of your ideas you sceme to be way ahead of all the testin & enginerers out there
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  #30  
Old 12-25-2007, 07:34:28 PM
Patrick McNallen Patrick McNallen is offline
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Default Re: Leaded fuel For Old Iron

Stephen, I don't think I told you that putting kerosene in your tractor would lower performance. As for "my ideas" about what makes engines knock, they aren't my ideas. You can have 2 different engines of the same size with exactly the same compression ratio and they can have different octane requirements at the same power output. Compression ratio has a big effect on an engine's octane requirement, but it is not the only thing that affects it. What has the most effect on octane requirement of a particular engine is the manifold pressure, which is related to the throttle position at any given speed and load.
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  #31  
Old 12-26-2007, 10:48:53 AM
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Default Re: Leaded fuel For Old Iron

I have run Coleman fuel in Briggs and Stratton models: A, Z, WMB, WI, 5S, and also in a REO. I have not had any problems. The 5S is on a mower so it has run under load with this fuel. I have also run my 1980's riding mower on Coleman with no problems. The rider is an aluminum bore.

I have a 1960's Briggs service manual that states to NOT use leaded gasoline in their engines, as it will build up in the combustion chamber.
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  #32  
Old 12-26-2007, 11:25:31 AM
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Default Re: Leaded fuel For Old Iron

When I was a kid I put kerosene in our mower on a few occasions to finish the yard, because there was no gas in the can. I don't know why the engine started, maybe lingering gas vapors and it was still hot Any way it was a 5S and it ran fine on the kero. Then the next time to mow I wouldn't
remember what I had done. Of course it wouldn't start cold on that kero Then when I finally figured it out, had to get enough gas in the tank to "lighten" up the kero, and prime it with gas to get it started.
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  #33  
Old 12-26-2007, 11:45:56 AM
Patrick McNallen Patrick McNallen is offline
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Default Re: Leaded fuel For Old Iron

Where did you buy your unleaded gasoline back in the 1960s?
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  #34  
Old 12-26-2007, 12:00:58 PM
Patrick McNallen Patrick McNallen is offline
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Default Re: Leaded fuel For Old Iron

The only air cooled engine manual I can locate right now is for a Kawasaki FC 150 V 6.75 HP made in 1999 or 2000. It recommends: "clean, fresh, regular unleaded gasoline, minimum 87 octane. If "knocking" or "pinging" occurs, use a different brand of gasoline or higher octane rating". I don't think that Coleman fuel has anywhere near 87 octane.
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  #35  
Old 12-26-2007, 12:16:26 PM
Patrick McNallen Patrick McNallen is offline
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The manual for a Briggs Stratton Intek Pro (110400 thru 210400) copyright 2001 says: "Use clean, fresh lead free gasoline with a minimum of 85 octane. Leaded gasoline may be used if it is commercially available and if unleaded is unavailable. In U.S.A. leaded fuel may not be used." Form No.MS-6737-5/01
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  #36  
Old 12-26-2007, 12:21:29 PM
HBurk HBurk is offline
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Default Re: Leaded fuel For Old Iron

You got unleaded gas at Texaco!
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  #37  
Old 12-26-2007, 12:25:42 PM
Patrick McNallen Patrick McNallen is offline
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Default Re: Leaded fuel For Old Iron

Briggs Stratton side valve engine 123K02/0183-E1 on Craftsman rotary mower recommended fuel: unleaded, 87 octane. Mower bought about 2003.
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  #38  
Old 12-26-2007, 12:33:52 PM
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Default Re: Leaded fuel For Old Iron

How about American gas for unleaded in the 60's? I'll get it right eventually.
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  #39  
Old 12-26-2007, 01:03:15 PM
Patrick McNallen Patrick McNallen is offline
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Default Re: Leaded fuel For Old Iron

I think that Amoco always sold unleaded gasoline, but there weren't any Amoco stations in this area. Around here, it was Texaco, Phillips 66, Sinclair, Gulf, Conoco, Magnolia/Mobile, Humble, and some independents and no-names. I never saw any unleaded gasoline until around 1973, and I was disappointed to find that it STANK worse than the leaded pump gasoline. Texaco sold the best leaded premium.
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  #40  
Old 12-26-2007, 03:26:13 PM
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Default Re: Leaded fuel For Old Iron

My grandfather has said that he always used unleaded gas in the mower. I wasn't around then so I don't know.
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