Antique Engines and Old Iron
[Home] - [HELP] - [Forums] - [Groups] - [Classified Ads] - [Subscribe] - [Books] - [Sponsors] -

Go Back   SmokStak > SmokStak® Antique Engine Community > Small Air Cooled Gasoline Engines
Forgot Password? Join Us!

Notices

Small Air Cooled Gasoline Engines Briggs & Stratton, Clinton, Lauson, Maytag, Nelson, Wisconsin and other small air cooled engines. Sub forums for mowers, scooters and powered eqipment.

Small Air Cooled Gasoline Engines

New Briggs engine with no HP rating


this thread has 42 replies and has been viewed 6300 times

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-03-2011, 07:29:09 PM
Joseph Joseph is offline
Registered-II
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 209
Thanks: 3
Thanked 36 Times in 29 Posts
Default New Briggs engine with no HP rating

I was looking for a small Briggs engine for a project I am going to build when I notice that the engine listed the max torque the engine produce instead of the HP. When did they quit listing the HP rating and why?
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 10-03-2011, 08:29:49 PM
Will Batty's Avatar
Will Batty Will Batty is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchewan, Canada
Posts: 660
Thanks: 1,510
Thanked 1,073 Times in 296 Posts
Default Re: New Briggs engine with no HP rating

It has been a few years now that they changed the way they rate them, I was told that a class action law suit was brought up against some of the companies building lawn mowers and the engines not achieving the horse power that was stated, and the class action law suit was being expanded to cover alot of other companies, but I don't know all the details of the law suit.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Will Batty For This Post:
  #3  
Old 10-03-2011, 09:35:10 PM
ehpower2's Avatar
ehpower2 ehpower2 is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: twin cities, minnesota
Posts: 1,675
Thanks: 69
Thanked 473 Times in 355 Posts
Default Re: New Briggs engine with no HP rating

basically Briggs was over rating their engines and they had a lawsuit against them and so they changed to the cc rating (or i think its cc they went to) but anyway if i remember you can do the math and get hp.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-04-2011, 09:23:38 AM
K D Redd K D Redd is offline
In Memory Of
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Southwest Missouri
Posts: 5,348
Thanks: 166
Thanked 1,196 Times in 1,057 Posts
Default Re: New Briggs engine with no HP rating

The Rating Briggs is using now is the max torque the engine will produce. I HATE THIS. What I do is look at the engine MODEL NUMBER. Look at the first two number which is the CID of the engine. Divide this number by two and you will have a rough estimate of the engines HP. DO NOT use the engines Family Number.

Kent
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to K D Redd For This Post:
  #5  
Old 10-04-2011, 12:05:05 PM
Jim Metzger Jim Metzger is offline
Registered-II
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Colgate, Wisconsin USA
Posts: 236
Thanks: 2
Thanked 79 Times in 53 Posts
Default Re: New Briggs engine with no HP rating

I noticed that on late model (over a 10 year period) Toro walk behind rotary mowers with Briggs engines, with overhead valves and the same displacement, varied the horsepower rating on the decal between 5.5 HP and 6.75 HP. with seemingly no other noticeable changes. I heard that the sales department took the liberty to choose whatever HP decal they wanted to display depending on the cost of the mower, that is the higher priced mowers got the higher HP decal all with the same engine. Tecumseh was accused of the same crime. Going to torque ratings really confusses the customer and I don't know why they would do that as you can misrepresent the torque rating as easy as the HP rating as it takes a engine dynamometer to tell the difference. I seem to remember a few years ago that Ford got caught over rating the Mustang by 40 horsepower and had to jump through hoops making it right with the customer to prevent a class action law suite. You really wonder how many of the ratings you see on anything are real.
Most of the time the ratings posted are the very best peak number a manufacturer could get under ideal operating conditions in a controlled laboratory setting.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Jim Metzger For This Post:
  #6  
Old 10-04-2011, 02:36:14 PM
John Newman, Jr.'s Avatar
John Newman, Jr. John Newman, Jr. is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Saint Louis, Missouri, USA
Posts: 5,301
Thanks: 759
Thanked 3,243 Times in 1,657 Posts
Default Re: New Briggs engine with no HP rating

These days, it seems that the marketing dept has more to say than the engineering dept about an items specs.
For entertaining reading, look at the claims made by makers of cheap amplifiers and generators. Their Watts must be a lot more powerful than the ones I used to deal with...
They must test their units to the point of blowing up and whatever it was doing just before the Big Bang, is multiplied by some factor and this is what they claim you can expect from their product.
Recently bought a cheap Chinese amp for my daughter's TV. Unit draws 2 amps at 12 volts from an AC adapter. Box says it has 120 watts output . My opinion is that it might be able to push about 2 - 3 watts per channel. Adequate for what it is being used for, but a long way from their claim.
__________________
John Newman, Jr.
Saint Louis, MO

I Can Probably Fix That
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-04-2011, 03:43:03 PM
Briggs Man's Avatar
Briggs Man Briggs Man is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Bend, Oregon
Posts: 515
Thanks: 621
Thanked 394 Times in 172 Posts
Default Re: New Briggs engine with no HP rating

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Metzger View Post
I noticed that on late model (over a 10 year period) Toro walk behind rotary mowers with Briggs engines, with overhead valves and the same displacement, varied the horsepower rating on the decal between 5.5 HP and 6.75 HP. with seemingly no other noticeable changes.


The reason for the difference of HP rating on the same engines is because they are rated at different RPMs. I'll bet that the two mowers had different cutting widths, and were calibrated (governed) at different operating RPM.

I agree with the other posts, not knowing the HP of an engine is frustrating, if a guy wasn't paying close attention, it almost looks like a deception technique to make people think that it is a HP rating.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-04-2011, 04:18:04 PM
Joseph Joseph is offline
Registered-II
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 209
Thanks: 3
Thanked 36 Times in 29 Posts
Default Re: New Briggs engine with no HP rating

I think the whole thing is just plain stupid how hard is it to rate an engines flywheel HP at a certain RPM and be done with it
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Joseph For This Post:
  #9  
Old 10-04-2011, 04:39:02 PM
Briggs Man's Avatar
Briggs Man Briggs Man is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Bend, Oregon
Posts: 515
Thanks: 621
Thanked 394 Times in 172 Posts
Default Re: New Briggs engine with no HP rating

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph View Post
I think the whole thing is just plain stupid how hard is it to rate an engines flywheel HP at a certain RPM and be done with it
Agreed, Back in the day most small gas engines were rated at 3600 RPM. PERIOD..
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Briggs Man For This Post:
  #10  
Old 10-04-2011, 05:04:22 PM
Craig DeShong's Avatar
Craig DeShong Craig DeShong is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: North Carolina, USA
Posts: 908
Thanks: 313
Thanked 861 Times in 309 Posts
Default Re: New Briggs engine with no HP rating

I was reading some of my Lauson catalogs just the other day and came across a paragraph regarding rated HP.. I’ll quote from the catalog:

“We guarantee all "LAUSON"
Engines to develop
more than the rated horsepower
and figure on an overrun
of 20 to 25 per cent.”

I guess “back in the day” it was typical to rate engines conservatively ?
__________________
[I]My Photos
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Craig DeShong For This Post:
  #11  
Old 10-04-2011, 05:29:24 PM
Ed Radtke Ed Radtke is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Martinsville In.
Posts: 1,219
Thanks: 10
Thanked 341 Times in 303 Posts
Default Re: New Briggs engine with no HP rating

multiply the torque times the rpm and divide by 5252.now you have horsepower.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Ed Radtke For This Post:
  #12  
Old 10-04-2011, 08:03:42 PM
David K David K is offline
Registered-II
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 271
Thanks: 2
Thanked 50 Times in 44 Posts
Default Re: New Briggs engine with no HP rating

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Radtke View Post
multiply the torque times the rpm and divide by 5252.now you have horsepower.
That is true BUT you don't know at what RPM the engine was turning when the torque rating was measured, so you can't use the formula. The maximum torque is rarely at 3600 rpm (rpm at which the HP rating is usually taken). Maximum torque is usually much lower, like in the 2400 to 2800 RPM range.

I got a friend that works at a John Deere dealer. He was telling me that B & S got in a bunch of trouble for publishing false HP ratings.....when you state that an engine was tested to a SAE standard, you had better be telling the truth. B & S over-rated their engines and got caught. I believe they were even fined by the feds. After the fine/lawsuit, they changed to the torque rating. I don't like the new torque rating because now you are comparing apples to oranges. How can you compare a B & S engine to other engines? B&S should have stuck with hp ratings and simply told the truth.

However, from an engineering standpoint, a torque rating is actually a more useful rating. The HP formula takes into consideration RPM and thus can be very misleading. A torque rating would be great if everybody used it. When an engine is tested on a dyno, the dyno is actually measuring torque. The torque value is then entered into a formula (see above) and the HP of the engine is computed. Since horses were amongst our first "driving forces", they were the standard by which early engines and motors were compared. Similar to the word "ton" as it relates to refrigeration. So I guess we will still be using the term “horsepower” for years to come.

Dave
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to David K For This Post:
  #13  
Old 10-04-2011, 09:50:35 PM
brew56 brew56 is offline
Registered-II
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Elon, North Carolina
Posts: 251
Thanks: 114
Thanked 86 Times in 54 Posts
Default Re: New Briggs engine with no HP rating

Quote:
Originally Posted by Briggs Man View Post
Agreed, Back in the day most small gas engines were rated at 3600 RPM. PERIOD..
I have an old Lauson engine that's missing the model plate.

What I found ( with Craig Deshong's help and website), and after measuring the bore and stroke, is two model numbers were produced with ALL the engine specs and measurements being identical EXCEPT, the model V22 is rated at 2 1/4 HP at 3100 RPM, a model V25 is rated at 2 1/2 HP @ 3600 RPMS. The bore, stroke and even all the part numbers match 100%.

Evidently, there may have been a little "latitude" with the older engines as well.

Jim
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to brew56 For This Post:
  #14  
Old 10-05-2011, 08:14:26 AM
sprkplug sprkplug is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Freedom, Indiana
Posts: 2,470
Thanks: 356
Thanked 912 Times in 644 Posts
Default Re: New Briggs engine with no HP rating

Most of the familiar small engine manufacturers got caught up in this lawsuit, rather they had a mis-labeled engine or not. SAE J1940 is the standard usually applied to small engine horsepower ratings, and it typically allows for a 15% variance on labeled horsepower - in other words, a ten horse engine is permitted to make anywhere between 8.5 and 11.5 horsepower, and still be within the guidelines. SAE J2723 is the standard used by auto companies when rating their engines, and it only allows for a 2% variance over stated horsepower labeling. Kawasaki has just announced plans to start rating it's engines to this new standard, and I wouldn't be surprised to see other manufacturers follow suit.

On another note, has anyone seen any of the new Lauson engines yet? I thought that engine production was slated to begin sometime this year. They will be produced for Tecumseh by LCT, ( a chinese engine company). I guess they are bringing back the old name as a symbol of a fresh start.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to sprkplug For This Post:
  #15  
Old 10-05-2011, 10:05:30 AM
Gary K's Avatar
Gary K Gary K is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Northwestern, Minnnesota, USA
Posts: 3,678
Thanks: 6,362
Thanked 9,493 Times in 2,032 Posts
Default Re: New Briggs engine with no HP rating

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Radtke View Post
multiply the torque times the rpm and divide by 5252.now you have horsepower.

Ed:

That's how I find the horsepower too. If the ft./lbs. of torque, and the rpm is known, I multiple the two, and divide by 5252. Here's my memory-aid:

torque x rpm
----------------- = H.P.
5252



Example: If the torque is 7.294 ft./lbs., and 3,600 rpm, what is the horsepower?

7.294 x 3600
----------------- = 5 H.P.
5252


If you know the horsepower, and rpm, you can find the torque by multiplying 5252 times the H.P., and dividing by the rpm. (5252 x 5 / 3600 = 7.294)




Dave:

Wouldn't a company, such as Briggs & Stratton be guilty of lying, if the torque and rpm thats displayed doesn't jive? I guess I'm gullible, as I assumed if the tag displays 5 H.P., and 3,600 rpm, it means exactly that . . . not 5 H.P. at a lower rpm.

Likewise, if the tag states 3,600 rpm, and 7.294 ft./lbs. torque, it should hold true. If a manufacturer got that torque at a lower rpm, and labeled it with 3,600 rpm, they're a liar, and should be held liable.

What's wrong with the truth . . . I can live with that much better than deception?




Gary K

Last edited by Gary K; 10-05-2011 at 10:55:20 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 10-05-2011, 08:54:12 PM
David K David K is offline
Registered-II
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 271
Thanks: 2
Thanked 50 Times in 44 Posts
Default Re: New Briggs engine with no HP rating

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary K View Post
Dave:

Wouldn't a company, such as Briggs & Stratton be guilty of lying, if the torque and rpm thats displayed doesn't jive?
I'm not sure I understand your question but I'll answer it the best I can.....

Yea...they are still a liar. But I never said B & S's new way of rating engines was foul-proof. I just said they switched because they got caught lying.

I don't think B & S states an RPM on their new engines. They just call them (for example) "625 series" for an engine that makes 6.25 ft/lbs (at what RPM we don't know). Without knowing the RPM, the formula is useless.

I'm all for companies telling the truth but the truth and morals seem to have nothing to do with business these days. All big companies lie, cheat, and steal.

Dave
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to David K For This Post:
  #17  
Old 10-05-2011, 09:16:47 PM
Briggs Man's Avatar
Briggs Man Briggs Man is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Bend, Oregon
Posts: 515
Thanks: 621
Thanked 394 Times in 172 Posts
Default Re: New Briggs engine with no HP rating

Quote:
Originally Posted by David K View Post
That is true BUT you don't know at what RPM the engine was turning when the torque rating was measured, so you can't use the formula. The maximum torque is rarely at 3600 rpm (rpm at which the HP rating is usually taken). Maximum torque is usually much lower, like in the 2400 to 2800 RPM range. Dave
I guess one could "taylor" their HP calculation based on the governed speed of their engine. Just need to verify the actual RPM..

Sure would simplify things if the manufacturers would just advertise the actual "HP @ 3600 RPM" and, then there would be no second guessing. They could also list MAX torque rating in the specification page.

Weren't things a lot more simple back in the day ?
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Briggs Man For This Post:
  #18  
Old 10-05-2011, 09:28:40 PM
sprkplug sprkplug is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Freedom, Indiana
Posts: 2,470
Thanks: 356
Thanked 912 Times in 644 Posts
Default Re: New Briggs engine with no HP rating

Quoted right from the current Briggs owner's manuals: "Torque values are derived at 3060 rpm, horsepower values are derived at 3600 rpm" It also goes on to say that the engine will NOT deliver it's rated gross power when used on a given piece of equipment. Gross power is obtained in a stripped down lab version, without charging system, production muffler, production air cleaner, etc, and is subject to controlled air temperature, humidity, and altitude, all of which are variables that briggs has no control over in the engine's final application.

The end user is concerned with net power, which is very hard to pin down in a number, due to the variables aforementioned.

It also goes on to say that Briggs may substitute an engine of higher rated power for this series engine.

I pulled two new briggs vanguard engines out of the box, just to check, and they both still stated horsepower ratings. The consumer engines I looked at all had torque ratings.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to sprkplug For This Post:
  #19  
Old 10-05-2011, 10:48:20 PM
Harold Stratton Harold Stratton is offline
Registered-I
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Seneca, South Carolina, USA
Posts: 18
Thanks: 5
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Default Re: New Briggs engine with no HP rating

I wish manufacturers of Small Engines would get back to principles they took to heart many years ago. Just a few decades ago, engines, like everything else, were UNDER RATED. One example of this: I have a relative that works at a paper mill. Years ago, a particular piece of equipment used a 1.5HP electric motor. After many years of service, the company decided to replace the motor even though it was still in working condition. The motor that took its place was rated for 6HP, had the same torque, used more power, and didn't last! Since the 6HP took the place of the 1.5HP, there have been 3 other motors on that piece of equipment. Long story short, neither ratings nor quality is as good anymore although it appears to be better on the surface.


-Henry Stratton
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 10-06-2011, 08:51:46 PM
David K David K is offline
Registered-II
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 271
Thanks: 2
Thanked 50 Times in 44 Posts
Default Re: New Briggs engine with no HP rating

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Stratton View Post
I wish manufacturers of Small Engines would get back to principles they took to heart many years ago.
I wish manufacturers of ANYTHING would get back to principles they took to heart many years ago. As far as I'm concerned, 99% of everything made these days is crap.

Take care,
Dave
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to David K For This Post:
Reply

Bookmarks


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

F o r u m Jump

Similar Threads Chosen at Random
Thread Thread Starter F o r u m Replies Last Post
Kohler 7.5c62 Engine model and KW rating mobus1 Kohler Generators 0 07-07-2010 10:16:53 AM
BTU rating for LP Engine Regulator Bill Wilson Onan Generators 3 06-18-2009 07:42:57 PM
Need HP rating on Kohler 4-cyl flathead engine springsman Kohler Generators 10 08-19-2005 04:20:15 PM
Engine Rating Guide? Ed Deis Antique Engine Archives 13 06-27-2003 04:56:38 AM
HP rating Tom Winland Steam Stationary Engines, Traction Engines 7 01-14-2003 10:12:56 AM


Use "Ctrl" mouse wheel to change screen size.
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:14:13 AM.

Smokstak and Enginads site search!


All use is subject to our TERMS OF SERVICE
SMOKSTAK® is a Registered Trade Mark - A Community of Antique Engine Enthusiasts
Copyright © 2000 - 2019 by Harry Matthews P.O. Box 5612 - Sarasota, FL 34277