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Historical Engine Article Series 2 " Type 1" Non compression engines


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  #61  
Old 06-30-2019, 09:48:11 AM
Ronald E. McClellan Ronald E. McClellan is offline
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series 2 " Type 1" Non compression engines

Here is a picture of a full scale model of the Economic engine. There was someone making kits to build it. Ron
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  #62  
Old 07-05-2019, 09:32:31 PM
CrashedAgain CrashedAgain is offline
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series 2 " Type 1" Non compression engines

Thanks for the replies. Next question:

I have made a model of a Bisschops/Sombart engine (photo attached). It is smaller than yours, Wayne Grenning.....bore is 7/8". Everything seems to be functioning as it should...it draws in air & fuel, flame ignition works and the ignition clack valve does close and seal on test but it puffs all of the energy out of the ignition port leaving none to provide motive power. It's as if the clack closes too slowly.

Any suggestions?

I do realize this is an almost impossible question so I won't be surprised if you pass but, as you are pretty well the only person who has alreadt "been there", any hints will be appreciated.

(hope the photo link works!)
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  #63  
Old 07-07-2019, 12:54:03 PM
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series 2 " Type 1" Non compression engines

CrashedAgain, you’re working on some neat engines. Like Ron said, the Economic engine was offered as kits, the first I seen it offered was at the NAMES model show in 2005. (See first pic below). He was still getting a few of the bugs out of it & I remember it was flexing the connecting rod from the piston to the lever/arm when it fired. I have his name card but too many to go through to find it.

On your Bisschop/Sombart engine, I don’t have experience with that exact engine & I’m not sure what your ignition hole diameter is or what you’re using for a clack valve but maybe try a smaller hole or a material that responds quicker. 0.001” thick shim stock would respond quick but the ignition hole would need to be small enough not to distort it, & you might need a guide to keep it from flexing too far when blown open. With a clack valve, do you need a positive ignition flame that blows more (is directed more) into the ignition port?

I’ve built a lot of non-compression & subatmospheric non-compression engines with only a ½” diameter bore & the main problem is usually ignition. Fuels with a wider burn range also make a big difference. Also because of the large volume in a non-compression engine at ignition, if the ignition isn’t in a good place with a good fuel mixture then you might also get a weak or funny-acting explosion/burn. Small bore non-compression engines also condense more water in their cylinder during cool start-up & spraying WD-40 directly into the cylinder or intake has always helped mine when they’re cold.

Below are a couple pictures of a ¾” diameter bore flame ignition non-compression test engine I built in one week as a kid in the early 1990’s; it took 2 additional weeks to get running. It would run on propane but it was touchy. Most the time I ran it on acetylene but its ignition port hole would soot up after a while & the engine would stall. Because there was no premixing of air with the gas in the burner & burner relight flame (no throat holes for air in the burner) & no burner guard, the ignition flame would burn rich & also blow out easily. A spark ignition relight electrode was added later & solved the ignition flame-out problem. Not recommended but this engine was run many times by connecting a rubber tube over the head of a torch & directing acetylene into a large 1 gallon tin expansion chamber (see last picture below). The low pressure acetylene then flowed into the engines small expansion chamber in front of it where the gas was then directed to the ignition burner & fuel valve on top the engine. There was no clack or flap valve on the ignition port of this engine & I had to play around with ignition port hole size to get it to run. After this crude brass test engine I made wood patterns for a large, fancy cast iron non-compression engine with fuel injection & intake cut-off which has always run great.

Trouble-shooting sometimes takes time & hopefully you can get things figured out without too much trouble. Make sure to post a video when you get it going.

-Nick
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Last edited by NAR; 07-07-2019 at 01:01:28 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 07-08-2019, 06:33:30 PM
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series 2 " Type 1" Non compression engines

Crashed Again. Nick brought up many good suggestions. I have a couple questions regarding the fuel inlet and air inlet. What did you use for a check valve in them? I did a lot of experimentation and ended up using a ball bearing in each of them. The flame port was a thin piece of stainless steel shim stock. You will have to experiment with what size hole works best. It get rather complicated when you really get into it with the quenching properties of the orifice size and thickness of the shim stock, so it will likely take some time to get it right. The smaller the bore on an engine like this the more tricky it will be to get it to run. Also friction is your enemy, everything must be absolutely friction free - borderline loose! Good luck and keep us informed on your progress. - Wayne
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  #65  
Old 07-09-2019, 09:55:38 PM
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series 2 " Type 1" Non compression engines

Thanks for the replies.
My gas check valve is a ball bearing but the air clack is a lapped brass disk with restricted travel. Both seem to be working well.
The ignition clack is a brass disk hung from a 1/32" pin. The port was 1/8". I also tried a 1/16" port with the valve disc held by a 0-80 screw. It sealed tight on air pressuring the cylinder. Clearly though, the flame is entering but the valve does not close in operation. Ignition flame is an alcohol wick.
Possibly some of the problem is the flame travel path. The clack valve sits in a 1/4" dia opening but the port into the cylinder is a 1/8" opening positioned the port into the cylinder at the very bottom of the valve disc to give a straighter run for the flame, consequently the back side of the valve may not get enough pressure to close it. That might be difficult to change.
Next I will try a caged ball.
Everything turns freely.
I did cut grooves for piston rings but have not installed any, the seal is reasonably good without them.
My cylinder is aluminum with an iron sleeve and a bronze valve sleeve. Castings were done as "lost plastic" 3D printed parts.
NAR, you have built some interesting engines!
and I have to agree, ignition is always a problem (and not just with non-compression engines). If you think the problem is carburetor, fix the ignition, If you think it is lack of compression, fix the ignition, if you think it is ignition, you are probably right. (the single exception is leaky intake valves).
That acetylene feed does sound downright scary, though!
Thanks for the links on the Economic engine.
I was able to get a good download of the patent application but could not get a decent copy of the Scientific American article. It is probably 100% conjecture anyway, since it was written at the same time as the patent application.
I am working on a graphic modelling of the valve linkage shown in the drawings, and at this point it looks like the valve events would be better if the ports are swapped so that the intake is at the top instead of the exhaust.
I'm guessing the casting sets (I thought maybe I was going to be first!!!!) just used an eccentric.
Incidentally, the original design was not flame ignition. The patent application mentions an "igniter plate made of platinum" to be heated by the blowlamp so the intent was a hot bulb (or hot plate) ignition system.
I do wonder if any were ever built.
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  #66  
Old 07-20-2019, 07:46:37 PM
CrashedAgain CrashedAgain is offline
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series 2 " Type 1" Non compression engines

Progress so far..........has unfortunately been unsuccessful.
It just won't internally combust.

I have made numerous ignition check valves. Photos of several attached, the "flapper" type in the separate photo worked best and could clearly be seen opening and closing on test.
In the photo with three valves, the top left has a 1/8" tube with a 3/32" ball check inside (7/32" ID). It was the only one which would not suck in the flame (just too small).

The others all act the same....flame sucks in but the "charge" does not ignite. Then, because there is no pressure build up in the cylinder, the ign check remains open (or at least not tightly closed) on the exhaust stroke and the "charge" exits via the ignition port and ignites as soon as it is in the open air.
Frame by frame analysis of a video confirms this sequence.

Photo 3 is the ignition port under the check valve with a recess to make room fo the valve. For size comparison, the screw holding the loose "flapper" valve is a 0-80.

Figuring that maybe the mix in the cylinder would not ignite because it was wither too rich or too lean (probably too rich), I also tried a "Lunkenheimer" type carburetor known to run ok on another engine but still the same result. (photo 4).

I also tried spark ignition with a spark plug in the ignition port and a continuous spark via a buzz coil. It did make an occasional "pop" which did not create any rotational force.

Running out of ideas!

It does look nice running on air though. (Rotating backwards with the intake check valve propped open and the air fed into the exhaust.)
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  #67  
Old 07-22-2019, 06:43:50 AM
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series 2 " Type 1" Non compression engines

Crashed again. It looks like you are in the middle of "discovering" and familiarizing yourself in the non compression engine world. Here are a few thoughts/ suggestions to try. Fuel: although a non-compression engine can run on propane, it can at times be very difficult especially with the less than ideal air and fuel system on a Sombart. I would suggest trying Acetylene. It is much more flammable and will burn in almost any mixture of air - meaning you the engine will be more forgiving. Now, with respect to the flame ignition port, I would keep the port in the cylinder larger than the ignition flapper valve. Also keep in mind when ever you have flame passing a tight passage or convoluted path it tends to quench ( or give its heat off to the surrounding structure). You will probably need a restriction free path for the flame and something that will not cool off the flame on its path into the cylinder. Stainless steel shim stock may do the trick. I would suggest you use Acetylene with electric spark ignition to work out the bugs then refine the ignition port. On the Sombart models I built, I ended up using Acetylene for the combustion fuel and propane for the ignition. Good luck - Wayne
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  #68  
Old 07-22-2019, 10:49:57 PM
CrashedAgain CrashedAgain is offline
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series 2 " Type 1" Non compression engines

Thanks, Wayne
I was also working my way to concluding that the 1/8" ignition ports are too small and the flame is being quenched on the way in. Although I'm a bit reluctant to start enlarging (drilling holes in the cylinder wall is not something that can be easily undone) it does look like that's the next logical step.
There is a nice, straight passage with the new flapper valve so maybe that is ok. Valve could be made thinner tho.
I'm away right now, will get back at it when I get home again.
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Old 07-23-2019, 05:48:46 AM
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series 2 " Type 1" Non compression engines

Crashed again. Im not sure if you mentioned the size of your engine. Mine was 1.250" bore ( at the lower limits of its power overcoming friction). Here is a snippet of the cylinder drawing from my engine showing the ignition port size. Also a detail I forgot regarding with the foil one way flame valve. I found for reasons I can not explain, that if the swing valve was installed upside down it worked better.
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Old 07-24-2019, 12:47:27 AM
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series 2 " Type 1" Non compression engines

It looks like mine will be testing that lower limit, it is only 7/8" bore.
Thanks very much for the detail drawing. I hadn't realized that the opening would have to be that big so that the flapper valve would be directly opening into the cylinder. I had just put a 1/8" port in the cylinder wall with the flapper valve opening up just behind that. Obvious now that is not nearly enough passage.
I had thought it might need a piston ring so that would mean the opening would have to be fairly small.
Makes sense that the valve would work better upside down....the bulk of the volume in the cylinder (and thus the pressure "epicenter") would be below the valve position when combustion takes place.
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Old 08-17-2019, 09:33:41 PM
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series 2 " Type 1" Non compression engines

Progress report.

It "almost runs". Video here :

https://www.facebook.com/ted.hansen....9603661602449/

I have enlarged the ignition port (which necessitated a new piston, the old one wouldn't span the larger port), tried a reed valve type ignition valve (so far unsuccessful), switched to buzz coil spark ignition and acetylene for fuel which seems to give some powerful bangs. Changed to loose disk type intake check valve to one of .004 brass shim held by a screw (much better).

The spark plug is in the ign port so the ign port still controls the timing, the micro switch on the side is just so the buzz coil isn't running all the time. Ignition occurs at about 38% of the up stroke.

Valve timing is actually running late in the video and there is a short period where no valve is open which causes some drag.
It does make feeble puffs on propane and the occasional hint of a power pulse on MAPP gas (the new stuff, not the old which actually contained acetylene).

Since making the video I have extended the valve timing so the intake opens as soon as the exhaust closes (might even be a tiny bit of overlap) and set the timing to TDC & BDC, which makes it run more freely. It will now spin almost 2 turns on a finger flip.

BUT....on first test with the new timing it gave a great bang and snapped the crankshaft! Main bearing is 1/4" diameter, reduced to 3/16" where it goes through the web and the crank throw is attached by arc welding. Tt broke where it was necked down to 3/16".

Looks like it has been firing hard enough to straighten out the bend in the con rod a bit causing it to jam against the crosshead.

Wayne, do you have any advice on what the valve timing should be? I'm thinking maybe a little bit of lead on the valve openings since there is obviously still some substantial cylinder pressure when the crank reaches TDC.

Thanks
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Old 09-05-2019, 10:55:35 PM
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series 2 " Type 1" Non compression engines

Finally running, MAPP gas and spark ignition.
Sounds worse in the video than in real.
Ran steady for over 2 minutes, posted a 30 sec clip here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSg9...ature=youtu.be
Tried to attach the video but keep getting "invalid file".
Got some other projects on hold, will try to get the open flame ignition working later.
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