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Historical Engine Article Series 2 " Type 1" Non compression engines


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  #21  
Old 04-25-2012, 03:35:16 AM
Wayne Timms Wayne Timms is offline
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series 2 " Type 1" Non compression engines

Hi Wayne,

On the Wright engine, reading the text - its flame ignition, through a touch hole. I will send you the full text.

Included below a flyer on the Ravel (in French), if I understand properly it runs between 50 -120 rpm.

From memory, the Anson Museum has a 4 manpower Andrews built, about the same size as the one at Coolsprings, it has 2 extra valves which join together in a Y shape. I have a text from 1890, which says that this is to aid cooling of residual products in the ports. But, I have read that the Bisschop requires heating before starting, I need to see if I can find where I read this.

Regards,
Wayne

www.bluefuel-whitesmoke.com

P.S. I should have said the picture I posted below, although the Andrews only shows 1 valve, the Anson engine has 2 side-by-side in the same position.
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Last edited by Wayne Timms; 04-25-2012 at 05:07:44 AM. Reason: Additional info
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Old 04-25-2012, 06:38:52 AM
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series 2 " Type 1" Non compression engines

Wayne T. Another great early document. Thanks for posting.
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I have seen several references to the pre-heating requirement. In my experience with operating noncompression engines, they are prone to recondensing the water vapors from combustion ( from burning H2 rich gas) within the cylinder. This add significant drag to the piston and has a negative effect on the output of the engine. Once the engine warms sufficiently the moisture leaves the cylinder with the exhaust gasses. The "pre-heater" most likely eliminates this momentary underpowered event. I have attached an engineering drawing of a Bischopp engine showing a cylinder preheater ( Item "R" ) under the base.
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---------- Post added at 06:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:47 AM ----------

Another curious entry in the field of noncompression engines was that by L. Benier, and A. Lamart, of Beaumetz France in 1881. A couple iterations of this design were made, one with a horizontal cylinder and the other arranged vertically . The engine is of the typical slide valve design with internal carrier flame and external relight. They were patented throughout Europe and here in the United States. It is unknown if any original examples survive today.
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Here is the Drawing form the US Patent 247741 filed in 1881:
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.An engraving of the earlier horizontal configuration, taken from an 1881 Scientific American:


The later simplified vertical piston design. Engraving from the Arts De Metiers museum archives.


Benier described the simplicity of his engine. It is interesting to note they consider the ability to disassemble the engine daily as a selling feature. An excerpt from an advertisement:

""The motor is very quickly and easily taken apart. For this reason every portion of it may be thoroughly cleaned every day, and verv little oil need be used. By varying the amount of gas used the speed may be correspondingly varied from 60 to 12O revolutions per minute—except in the very small sizes, where the speed ought not to exceed 120 revolutions. The largest size of these machines has a power equivalent to 50 kilogrammeters; it weighs only 55 lb., and consumes about 6 cubic feet of gas per hour.""
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Old 04-25-2012, 07:05:46 AM
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series 2 " Type 1" Non compression engines

A close up of the Benier Slide Valve system
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Old 04-25-2012, 07:50:24 AM
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series 2 " Type 1" Non compression engines

Wayne,
The Smithsonian has two Stuart Perry patent models, nos. 3597 and 4800. Alexander Rider of Rider [hot air] engine fame also patented a gas engine and spark ignition, but I'm not sure if they were ever manufactured. Otto also patented a hot air engine, the remnant of that model is also in the Smithsonian.
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Old 04-25-2012, 08:43:38 AM
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series 2 " Type 1" Non compression engines

Brent, Its good to know they still have the patent models. I have been trying to get some better photos of them ( from the Smithsonian) but it seems at time they don't even know what they own. The size of their collection is massive and with only a small fraction of it ever on display the rest sits hopefully cataloged in some warehouse,
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Old 04-25-2012, 12:44:31 PM
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series 2 " Type 1" Non compression engines

Another European entry in the list of Type 1 engines is the Ord. This unique engine has a novel design that incorporates two slide valves ( one on each side of the engine) for intake and ignition. Also it has two plungers that charge a metered amount of fuel and air into the ignition flame chamber of the slide valve.

A brief description of its operation follows below ( taken from an 1881 English Enginering magazine)
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""""Gas Motor Engines: R. Ord, from Devizes Wilts: 'l'he following constitute the essence of the four “ claims" made for this invention: (1) the use of a pump for forcing gas into the lighting chamber; (2) the combination of the pump with another for forcing air into the lighting chamber; (3) the use of a compound pump for the double purpose; and (4) constructing the piston with ports for the admission of the air of the explosive charge, The operation of the engine is as follows: Air enters pump K through valve 8, and gas enters pump L through pipe 1. When the piston B has arrived at the bottom of its stroke, the plungers k I have accomplished one-half of their upward stroke, the plunger passes a groove so that all the gas above it passes pipes 3 and 4. The cam G depresses the valve F and opens the lighting chamber i to the outer air and also opens the small port 5. The gas is lit by the flame at n when the charge is admitted beneath the piston B through valve F. At about one-third of the upstroke of the piston the cam O causes valve F to suddenly rise thereby, closing all the ports in the back plate 0 and opening the lighting chamber 2' to the port \V, thus igniting the charge. When the piston is forced to the top of its stroke, the port 15 in valve H is brought opposite the passage 16 in the cylinder, and the port 14 in the back plate M, and the products of combustion are discharged, (July 26, 1881). """


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---------- Post added at 12:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:40 PM ----------
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I will be posting more tomorrow on Fernand Forest and then information on several American design in the following days.
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Still looking for information, Drawings, and or Patent info on the Balestrino engine of 1855 and Torassa in 1856.
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Last edited by Wayne Grenning; 04-25-2012 at 05:36:49 PM.
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Old 04-25-2012, 06:02:02 PM
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series 2 " Type 1" Non compression engines

Wayne, thatís neat about the pre-heater for the Bischopp engine & thanks for posting the picture.

Iím curious if anyone has ever run across literature about tests on volume-throttling a non-compression? No doubt some of the early engines probably had restrictions in their intake passageway & could be fired way below atmospheric. A while back I tried a volume-throttled carby on a model engine & it led to that water build-up problem like the Bischopp had. After running only 30 seconds from a cold start, a milky-white substance formed on top the piston. See pic. A search led to carbonic acid?

That horizontal Benier kind of looks like a toaster on legs with a flywheel, jk.

-Nick
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Old 04-26-2012, 06:13:57 AM
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series 2 " Type 1" Non compression engines

The Benier “toaster” engine was no doubt a curious looking device but none made a more interesting visual statement than Fernand Forest’s noncompression engine introduced in 1881. Early literature indicates that his prototype engine was originally built with a spool valve. This concept was quickly abandoned in the production versions incorporating a more traditional flat surfaced slide valve with carrier flame ignition. Today, only three original examples remain, a 1/15th HP size located in the Arts De Metires Museum in Paris, a Factory built (running condition) salesman sample in private hands and a 1 HP (their largest offering ) also located in Europe. Although the engine was designed by Forest it was contracted out and built by two different companies, The first being Camille Dupont of Paris and the other Mutel and Dupont. The relationship between these two companies in not known, however there are slight design variations between them. The following sales document is posted on Wayne Timms web page showing more information on the Camille Dupont offering.

This is the engine locate in the Arts De Metires museum in Paris. This very early engine was donated to the museum in 1883 by Fernand Forest himself. Unfortunately it is locked in a glass display case preventing a close study of the engine.



Shortly after this engines appearance it was dropped for more powerful, practical, portable and efficient designs. Forest was a prolific engineer who's designs contributed greatly to the evolution of the modern internal combustion engine. His accomplishments included 1) inventor of the carburetor, 2) one of the first, if not the first to use magneto make and break ignition and 3) successfully manufacture a large size "high speed" engine that was adapted for marine & submarine use ( in the late 1880's ) Volumes of information could be written about his accomplishments however that will have to come at a later time.
Here is a simplified sketch of his typical design taken from an 1885 text book.

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Old 04-26-2012, 08:16:54 AM
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series 2 " Type 1" Non compression engines

Hi Wayne,

I notice that the piston on the Benier is concave as is the head. Why would a non-compression engine need a larger combustion chamber?

I have a non compression engine that I have been trying to fill in the blanks on. I have made a new crankshaft with as much throw as possible to clear the filed out flat section in the block. One photo shows the piston at top dead. As you can see there is still a lot of room left in the combustion chamber.

I have posted a photo of the underneath of a Bisschop, I am guessing the plain bose with the two holes is where the heating lamp bolts, although it is not in the same position as the diagram you have posted. What do you think?

Regards,
Wayne

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Old 04-26-2012, 08:19:36 AM
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series 2 " Type 1" Non compression engines

Below a couple of flyers on Benier.

Do you think the engine in the last flyer could be non-compression as well?
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  #31  
Old 04-26-2012, 09:45:38 AM
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series 2 " Type 1" Non compression engines

Wayne, Once again, thank for your contribution to this thread. The Noel engine sparked my interest. I have not head of them, but after a little digging in the library I found a brief reference to it in a book by Aime Witz. It has visual characteristics of period noncompression engines but this one is a 4 cycle.

What a unique engine. I want one !!


"""
Noel Engine.
Mr. Noel manufacturer in Provins (Seine-et-Marne), has proposed building an engine four-stroke, simple, inexpensive, robust and economical, especially for small industry.
The simplification consists in removing the rails; a replaces the valve clearance drawer; the regulator acts by deleting gas ignition occurs by battery.
This engine in sizes from 1/4 HP up to 2 HP ( vertical construction)
Noel engines can be powered by gas or carburetted air, in which case, the carburetor is placed in the base of the machinery itself. Guarantee their consumption is 900 liters of gas or light oil 500 grams per horsepower-hour number: these are results to report.

"""


Here is some additional text by Gustave Chauveau in 1891



""
The Noel engine appeared recently has been specially designed for small forces inferior to a horse. This is one of the first compression engines built under these conditions.
To the end he proposed, Mr. Nowl was to combine a simple machine, compact, easy to order, etc.. He succeeded in large part to achieve these conditions. However, two things are wrong with this engine : it was built a little too delicate and the use of batteries, coil, etc.., for ignition.
That being said, let's get a quick description. The horizontal cylinder is cooled by radiating fins. The piston movement is transmitted to the shaft motor located near the bottom of the cylinder by a provision similar to that which we saw about the motor noncompression Forest engine.
A small vertical shaft, turning half as fast as the shaft motor and taking him on his movement through two bevel gears, control every organ distribution of ignition and regularization.
The distribution is effected by valves. The air inlet valve is automatic. The spark at the right time by using a switch located on both the induced current and the inductor current. Adjustment shall, by complete removal of gas. The deposit base is used for drawing air.
Noel Engines are built in Provins, by their inventor. Here are the prices with base and accessories:
1/4 horse, 800 francs; third horse, 950 francs; 1/2 horse, 1 150 francs a horse, 1,700 francs; 2 horses, 2,500 francs.

Here is slightly better view of the same engraving you posted.





---------- Post added at 09:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:56 AM ----------
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Wayne, The better more detailed engineering drawings of the Forest engine show a concave piston as well. Here is a photo of the piston from the factory built Forest salesman sample. It is concave alsol. I do nothave any idea why they did it that way. Contemporary research has shown that is not necessary.

In regards to the Bischopp, I agree the two hole flange on the underside of the engine is for the Cylinder burner. Unfortunately I can bring nothing to the table on your horizontal NC engine. Keep up informed on what you find out.
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Last edited by Wayne Grenning; 04-26-2012 at 09:14:52 AM.
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  #32  
Old 04-27-2012, 06:20:39 AM
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series 2 " Type 1" Non compression engines

Next will be the Economic Motor Companies engine. It was patented in 1883 by George Hopkins on Brooklyn, NY # 284555. Although laid out differently the engine shared many similarities between his design and the European Sombart/Bischopp counterpart. It has a similar air cooled cylinder, and a spool valve for the control of intake and exhaust. The flame injection system and Check valves in the air & fuel inlets were also "borrowed". The design seems to be sound and I would have so assume many were made in the mid 1880', especially in the New York City with its vast network of coal gas pipelines. Unfortunately none are known to survive today.

Below is a drawing showing the general arrangement of the engine.
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Here you can see an Economic engine specially outfitted for pumping water. It no doubt was in direct competition with Nashe's "Crown" pumping engine. ( cover in a future post) They were fueled the same. built and marketed in the same area and time.
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Another engraving showing a typical ( low power ) application for the engine. It gives an interesting glimpse into a time gone by and also an idea as to the relatively small size of the engine and how it was typically "connected" to the fuel source in the house. Basically, the burner was removed from the wall sconce where the engine's natural rubber gas supply hose was connected.

Ok sweetheart, while I am at work today don't forget to start the engine (in the bedroom?) and make new clothing for the family !!!!!!!!!.......... For any of you that have been fortunate enough to see a Sombart type engine in operation, you are well aware that it is anything resembling a quiet and relaxing event.


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Old 04-27-2012, 06:37:58 AM
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series 2 " Type 1" Non compression engines

Here is a more refined, simplified and improved Economic Motor Co engine. .
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This particular engine was configured for pumping water as well and offered in 1885 for small domestic applications, presumably used for periodically refilling the homes cistern.



Here you can see the cylinder arrangement and ignition system of this "improved" engine


A final configuration of the Economic was their horizontal air cooled unit. This was apparently quite portable and nicely painted to "fit in" the interior decor of the family home. It is difficult to determine the scale of this engine. Is the object to the right a glass or waste can?

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Old 04-27-2012, 08:26:25 AM
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series 2 " Type 1" Non compression engines

Wayne,

I would have to say the object on the right is a glass. Comparing it to the size of the handle on the gas cock, and the size of the hose going to it. Terrific post by the way!

Last edited by Chris Austin; 04-27-2012 at 08:28:03 AM. Reason: Corrections
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Old 04-27-2012, 10:24:15 PM
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series 2 " Type 1" Non compression engines

Neat study of early engines!
Nice engraving of the engine drive sewing machine. Two thoughts; How do you stop and start sewing, except for an "engineer" with her in the bedroom, and second, how fast would those petty coats fly ( from the open belts of course) if things got out of hand?
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Old 04-28-2012, 07:54:34 AM
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series 2 " Type 1" Non compression engines

"For any of you that have been fortunate enough to see a Sombart type engine in operation, you are well aware that it is anything resembling a quiet and relaxing event."

Hi Wayne,

In fact the only engines I have seen run of this type are Bischopp, and didn't realise until you built the Forest engine, that this cycle of non-compression engine can run quite nicely.

Regards,
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Old 04-28-2012, 06:01:57 PM
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series 2 " Type 1" Non compression engines

Wayne, I have seen a large Sombart and several full size Bischopp reproductions run. None of them I would put in a category of " runs well" Even the model Sombarts I built back in 1990's didn't run that great. I have seen several American built Crown pumping engines run. When fueled with illuminating gas they are a pleasure to watch and run as well as my full size Forest Reproduction. A distinct advantage the Crown and Forest have is that combustion occurs with the cylinder completely isolated from the outside world ( a benefit of carrier flame ignition) . In the case of the Sombart and Bischopp Ignition occurs while air is passing through the intake horn diaphragm, and a flame is being injected into the cylinder through a hinged swing valve. During combustion, the increase in pressure slaps the membrane against the outer plate of the intake creating a loud popping sound.

Also I forgot to post the Forest salesman sample piston photo showing the concave top from post #31. Here it is:
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---------- Post added at 06:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:02 PM ----------

Martin, I am sure the "engineer" would be a necessary accessory for seamless operation of the sewing machine. As far as how to engage & disengage it, I have do not have any idea? Maybe there was a clutch incorporated into the sewing machine ?? Either way I agree, it is a neat engraving
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Old 04-28-2012, 08:31:01 PM
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series 2 " Type 1" Non compression engines

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Timms View Post
Hi Wayne,

I notice that the piston on the Benier is concave as is the head. Why would a non-compression engine need a larger combustion chamber?

.....................snip.......................

Regards,
Wayne

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Wayne:

When I built my "Lenoiresque" engine which is a lawnmower engine converted to Lenoir-like non-compression operation, I originally thought that it needed to be more like an air compressor (minimum headspace) in order to efficiently draw a charge during the intake portion of the downstroke.

When I first ran the engine, it knocked very badly running on both propane and gasoline. The knocking was detonation which I think was caused by the expansion being too rapid for the space in which it was happening.

I eliminated the knock and made the engine start and run much better (for a Lenoir!!) by making a 1/2" thick spacer for the home-made head.

Either the illuminating gas used in those days had much happier combustion characteristics or those designers did some hair tearing.

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Old 04-30-2012, 05:30:25 AM
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series 2 " Type 1" Non compression engines

Elden, Very interesting! What fuel were you using in your "Lenoiresque" ??
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Old 04-30-2012, 10:22:15 AM
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Default Re: Historical Engine Article Series 2 " Type 1" Non compression engines

Wayne:

I started with propane but converted it to liquid fuel. Naphtha seems to work best.

I know that Lenoir used illuminating gas but it's a bit hard to come by and I wasn't really that interested in accuracy. I just wanted to see if I could build a Lenoir cycle engine that would run.

It does run but only produces slightly more power than it takes to overcome friction. The original Lenoirs probably made a little more power for their size due to their being double-acting.

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