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Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion

Brayton Cycle Engines


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  #21  
Old 02-04-2013, 10:50:10 PM
imotorhead64
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  #22  
Old 02-05-2013, 12:45:36 AM
imotorhead64
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Default Re: Brayton cycle engines

It seems like there is a wide range of compressor to expander ratios in the different designs. The volume difference seems to be the largest in the inverted walking beam and horizontal versions. I believe these are some of the last engines made by Brayton? By sudying the drawings and photos I would guess the ratio is as high as 5 or 6 to :1 on these engines? But on the early walking beam engine that uses the back side of the expander as the compressor the ratio is 1:1 When I made my little engine I tried different ratios and found that 3:1 worked pretty good.

---------- Post added at 11:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:23 PM ----------

Here is another version... I forgot to post...



and also a picture of my engine.



the compressor is on the left.

---------- Post added at 11:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:41 PM ----------

There seems to be 8 known configurations of the brayton engine not counting the Simon versions. Wayne did I miss any?
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  #23  
Old 02-05-2013, 06:36:49 AM
Wayne Timms Wayne Timms is offline
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Default Re: Brayton cycle engines

Hi,

So would it be correct in believing that besides the patent model, the first type of engine he produced is the one in the photo below?

Regards,
Wayne

www.bluefuel-whitesmoke.com
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  #24  
Old 02-05-2013, 08:35:58 AM
imotorhead64
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Default Re: Brayton cycle engines

That's what I believe... Maybe Wayne Grenning can confirm it? You had asked about the valve operation... Did you see the picture of the red engine Wane G. posted? That seems to be the same engine.. Unfortunately the railing is hiding most of how the valves are operated. I'm not sure where that engine is located? Maybe that's the one Otto had purchased to study? If so it would be an early version...

---------- Post added at 07:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:10 AM ----------

Quote by Wane Grenning "6) Deutz Museum in Porz / Cologne Germany has an early original that Otto himself bought to study."

---------- Post added at 07:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:13 AM ----------

If that's not the engine at the Deutz museum I wonder if someone has a photo of the Deutz engine? Also curious if there are any known surviving Simon engines?

---------- Post added at 07:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:22 AM ----------

Here's a pic from the museum... do you see a brayton in there? I think it's really neat how there are no ropes or railings... a person could really get up close to these historical engines!

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Old 02-05-2013, 10:13:52 AM
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Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
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Default Re: Brayton cycle engines

John,
The Red Brayton is at the Smithsonian Institution. I am not sure if it is still on display or in storage. The photo was taken about 20 years ago - It would be nice to see a more clear photo of this engine if anyone has one they could post.

Wayne. I am not sure. It strongly resembles it. but on close examination of the photo it has a sideshaft, flyball governor and what appear to be a liquid pump, Were these characteristic of his earliest design??



.
I also agree, the inverted walking beam design was one of his latest designs. If I remember correctly this is discussed in "Internal Fire".

Here are a couple of recent photos of the Brayton engine Otto Bought to study. It is located in the Technikum in Porz Germany. The photo of the museum posted above was also of Deutz collection but in its old location as built in the 1960's in Deutz, Germany.
.

.

Last edited by Wayne Grenning; 02-05-2013 at 10:51:28 AM.
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  #26  
Old 02-05-2013, 12:19:17 PM
imotorhead64
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Wow Wayne, Thanks for sharing those pictures! So I guess there are at least 2 of the inverted walking beam engines? Do you know of any others survivors of this type? Have you given any thought or calculated what the volume difference between compressor and expander might be? Sorry for all the questions but you are a wealth of information on this topic. Thanks again!

---------- Post added at 11:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:52 AM ----------

I see this engine also has a fuel pump on the end of the cam which can be turned by crank... Im guess this is also an oil burning / injected engine different from the early Brayton which mixed the fuel and air prior to the compressor. Do you know if the red engine is also injected? I had thought that the walking beam engines, like the red one, were some of Braytons first engines... Do you think that,s the case? Or maybe there is an earlier version of the red engine?

---------- Post added at 11:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:00 AM ----------

I do notice the green engine at the Smithsonian has a support that ties the man caps together.. There are several etchings / pictures of this engine where no support is shown ... Whould you agree that the green Smithsonian engine a later version of this one?

---------- Post added at 11:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:08 AM ----------

That patent from 1874 look to me like it's for the oil burning engine... Not the early version...
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  #27  
Old 02-05-2013, 09:17:39 PM
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I keep thing about the problems that cooling the expander must have presented...Especially in the double acting versions... I had read something about a water cooled piston and rod. Maybe someone can confirm this? The only other double acting I/C engine im aware of is the Mery. I was lucky enough to get to play with the one Bob Paddy use to own back in the late 70's when I was a younger man. I remember the packing kind of gave him problems and the Mery is a 6 stroke engine with the extra 2 strokes giving some cooling reliefe to the cylinder and piston. In the brayton there is no reliefe. Its hot and hotter... There is a fire inside on every stroke of the expander. The uncooled piston and rod would get very hot.

---------- Post added at 08:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:04 PM ----------

I keep thing about the problems that cooling the expander must have presented...Especially in the double acting versions... I had read something about a water cooled piston and rod. Maybe someone can confirm this? The only other double acting I/C engine im aware of is the Mery. I was lucky enough to get to play with the one Bob Paddy use to own back in the late 70's when I was a younger man. I remember the packing kind of gave him problems and the Mery is a 6 stroke engine with the extra 2 strokes giving some cooling reliefe to the cylinder and piston. In the brayton there is no reliefe. Its hot and hotter... There is a fire inside on every stroke of the expander. The uncooled piston and rod would get very hot.
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  #28  
Old 02-06-2013, 02:29:49 AM
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Default Re: Brayton cycle engines

I should correct myself... The only compression I/C engine I'm aware of is the Mery. The Lenoire, Hugon and maybe some other non compression engines are double acting.
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  #29  
Old 02-06-2013, 05:08:23 AM
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Default Re: Brayton cycle engines

I found a photo of an original Simon Engine ... They were sold as the "Eclipse Silent Gas Engine"

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Old 02-06-2013, 06:38:55 AM
Wayne Timms Wayne Timms is offline
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Default Re: Brayton cycle engines

Hi,

I have a late patent from 1894. Not really the engine I am chasing information on.

John, I don't know about the water cooled piston rod, but in the book "Vienna International Exhibition 1873, Volume 3", the author writes that the engine has a cast iron plate bolted to the piston with asbestos packing in-between to help stop the transfer of heat from the combustion chamber to the piston.

I don't think the engine I posted has a sideshaft or a governor. I will have to do some reading but I think the engine speed is controlled by the needle/gate valve. The engine design of the block doesn't lend itself to having a side shaft fitted easily. I am thinking more along the lines of cams, pushrods or rockers operating the valves.

Regards,

Wayne

www.bluefuel-whitesmoke.com
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  #31  
Old 02-06-2013, 07:35:05 AM
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Default Re: Brayton cycle engines

Wayne T. I think you are on the right track... maybe cams or excentrics on the crank behind the flywheel.. The asbestos makes sense but on the double acting expander the piston rod would get really hot and since you cant lube the piston rod I believe the packing wouldn't last long at all. Maybe I read that in internal fire? I lost my copy some years ago when I lent it out.... and it never came back..
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  #32  
Old 02-06-2013, 11:48:39 AM
imotorhead64
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Wayne T. Something I noticed about that picture is that there appears to be a hose or pipe going to the compressor inlet. Maybe there is a gas mixer or vaporizing devise that is not shown... ? I think that hose is a clue that this may be the early engine.
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  #33  
Old 02-06-2013, 10:17:11 PM
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Wayne T. I was curious why you are particularly interested in the early engine? Is it something you plan on making a copy of?
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  #34  
Old 02-07-2013, 05:18:51 PM
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Default Re: Brayton cycle engines

George Brayton was quite a huckster and selfless promoter of his engines. Several institutions of the day tested his engines and all concluded the Brayton to be less than advertised in the power department. Others got in the game, notably Richards, who patented his own variant of the Brayton. How he got it patented, with such a similar design, is up for grabs. Richards engine was produced in Binghamton, NY. I doubt many were produced since he got in the game after the Otto was introduced. I though you guys would find this Brayton variant interesting...
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Old 02-07-2013, 05:20:54 PM
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Default Re: Brayton cycle engines

Another view of the oil and air mixing and other details. The two stage inlet valve is interesting and probably improved atomization.
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  #36  
Old 02-07-2013, 07:02:36 PM
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Default Re: Brayton cycle engines

Thanks Paul. Interesting... Thanks for the share... Very Similar to the Simon version too... 90 degree crank instead of a big air reservoir. Brayton engines do have some advantages over otto and diesel... Smooth and quiet running is a nice thing.

---------- Post added at 06:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:49 PM ----------

It looks like the Richards also used a plate on top of the piston like Wayne T. Had described... I think these engines transfered a lot of heat to the expander cylinder walls and piston. Paul did you notice anything to cool the piston or piston rod on the ram engine?
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  #37  
Old 02-08-2013, 03:32:17 AM
imotorhead64
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Here are some thoughts about innovation and history.. and why I believe its important that we discuss silly things like the Brayton cycle. Everyday the machine of life is turning out new young folks who put on their thinking caps and attend schools, colleges and universities in an effort to find a new way of doing things. I'm always amused when a young person thinks they have made some great invention only to find out that it was originally thought of 100 years ago. about 10 years ago when I was messing around with my little Brayton engine I offered to take it to UC Davis engineering dept so they could see it run. They told me there was no such thing as a piston Brayton cycle engine... and I told them they should study some history. The thing is supposedly smart people often resist a new idea that is not their own. And everyone wants to be the inventor.

In the 1870's when Otto invented his engine there were always more than a few critics. They (all the smart folks of the day) said he was wasting his time and it couldn't be done... nothing would replace steam... after all, all the supposedly smart folks had tried without success. Then in 1876 Otto proved them wrong. The new 4 stroke cycle became the rage... the numbers are fuzzy but suddenly there was an engine the was at least double the efficiency of any steam engine of the same period. It was hugely safer than steam and could run relatively unattended. Then a few years later here comes Akroid, then Diesel... Diesel was laughed at too but he knew what he was doing.. Expansion was the key to increasing efficiency. He learned about compression ignition from studying the Chinese fire stick made a working engine and the rest is history. Here we are 120 years since the invention of the Diesel engine and 135 years since Otto conceived the 4 stroke cycle. for the last 100 plus years little new has been thought of or created. Can we come up with something better? Or are we stuck here beating our heads against the wall if we even dare to dream there is a better way to convert heat energy into useful power?
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  #38  
Old 02-08-2013, 04:56:22 AM
imotorhead64
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Default Re: Brayton cycle engines

Ericsson cycle hand crank... very similar cycle to Brayton http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9s_Bww7bANI
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Old 02-08-2013, 08:01:37 AM
Wayne Timms Wayne Timms is offline
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Default Re: Brayton cycle engines

Hi,

I have been looking at the information and I notice that the 'red' engine has very broad spokes and counter balance holes drilled in the side of the rim. Is it possible that this is not the original flywheel for this engine?

Also the 'green' engine has odd wheels on it, with the photos of the patent model, one of the photos is printed in reverse.

John, I would like to build a replica of the Brayton, but I would like to have it as near accurate as possible.

Regards,
Wayne

www.bluefuel-whitesmoke.com
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Old 02-08-2013, 09:50:06 AM
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Hi Wayne T. I think that's great. It would be neat to have a few more of these in circulation so people could learn about them. I think this is a picture of the same engine in your book. I believe its one of his early engines too. It's the only Brayton I've seen with curved spokes and maybe this one had the vapor carb not oil injection. You wouldn't want to build the vapor carb engine would you? I think the oil /injected engine is a lot safer and would be more trouble free. I dont think this is the same as the red engine. The colum and walking beam are similar but the base seems to be different. One thing I noticed on the Pensilvania engine is there are a set of gears behind the flywheel. maybe its a cam gear or maybe the side shaft runs off of it?

[IMG][/IMG]

---------- Post added at 08:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:05 AM ----------

I think using the back of the expander as a compressor is an ok idea except it's going to rob a lot of power having that big of a compressor. most of the later engines seem to have a compressor abt 1/3 or small the size of the expander. My engine had the ability to change the compressor volume and also the phasing of the compressor. so I played with it a lot and finally decided 1/3 was a good ratio. There is a way to reduce the effective size / work of the compressor. by limiting the intake air... it makes it work like a smaller compressor.. when I was going to make an engine from an old steam engine I considered this. Brayton used a pressure relief valve but thats just a total waste of power..... to pressurize the air the just let it escape.. you can try what im suggesting by capping your hand over the intake of an air compressor... if you have an air tight seal after a few spins it will spin like there is no load... anyhow I'm excited to hear you might take on the project...

---------- Post added at 08:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:15 AM ----------

I had figure the best way to limit the air was to have some sort of pressure operated piston to hold the intke valve closed or have a pressure controlled valve on the intake. the speed control would limit the amount of fuel injected... I realize this may not be historically correct but I think it's the best way to control engine speed and compressor pressure.

---------- Post added at 08:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:23 AM ----------

Another thing I'm not sure we discussed the when to cut off the intake air to the expander... I tried from about 1/4 to 1/2 of the stroke. The engine worked best with the 1/4 cut off. But I was injecting the fuel prior to the expander inlet valve and I had plans to move it to past the inlet valve. With that configuration the fuel could continue to burn and build pressure after the inlet valve has closed so now we are just talking about a piston charged Lenoir engine.

---------- Post added at 08:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:30 AM ----------

Went back and looked at the red engine again.. for sure the base is different... it sits much lower than the engine in your book.. I think the flywheel looks correct.. if it was larger it would hit the ground.. I agree the green engine seems to have mis matched flywheels.. all the photos show it with one flywheel... maybe another was added? here is a pic of the expander / compressor I believe is associated with the early engine.



---------- Post added at 08:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:39 AM ----------

There seems to be a valve to restrict the air going into the expander... maybe this was the speed regulation? if this engine used an air fuel mix that would work ok but still what to do when the pressure gets too high? I realize it would be nice to make your engine historically correct but it would also be nice to have an engine that runs nicely to give a good representation of the possibilities of these engines.

---------- Post added at 08:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:44 AM ----------

I see what you mean abt the holes but they are not in the correct position to work as a counterweight. I think the are balancing holes not counterweight but that's just my opinion..
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