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Magnetos, Ignition Coils and Spark Plugs Discussion about magnetos, buzz coils, spark plugs, ignitors and low tension coils.

Magnetos, Ignition Coils and Spark Plugs

Fairbanks Morse Z 3hp AB33 windings


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  #1  
Old 08-05-2017, 08:17:04 PM
DunlopBob DunlopBob is offline
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Smile Fairbanks Morse Z 3hp AB33 windings

Hi people I'm new to this site and I've got a little problem with the ab33 mag on my Fairbanks. Thing is it ran great covered in rust and gore, now it will only fire at low revs and barely keeps going this I had decided was caused by weak mag springs as in Slow motion the striker does not rest before being struck again. No problem new springs ordered, however on closer examination ( even if springs let it fire at higher speeds ie over 180 rpm ) I decided to check the resistance of the coil guess what open circuit secondary winding. I work in the motor vehicle industry and using tools is second nature so winding this myself is only slightly scary, however I can't find information on number of turns for primary or secondary windings or how many layers or wire gauges. Can anyone assist with this info as I 'm scuppered without it ?

Thanks Robbie

As I'm in Scotland the state of the engine ( not even complete ) was quite poor and I'll post some pics soon.
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  #2  
Old 08-05-2017, 08:30:32 PM
AngrySailor AngrySailor is offline
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Default Re: Fairbanks morse z 3hp ab33 windings

I don't know specifically about your application, but secondary windings are usually many thousands of turns... Not that it CAN'T be done, but you might not find it enjoyable after the first few thousand

Andrew
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Old 08-05-2017, 10:19:29 PM
AKMark AKMark is offline
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Default Re: Fairbanks morse z 3hp ab33 windings

Check your points, the gap should be .014 if they are not set right your engine will run like crap.
Mark
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  #4  
Old 08-06-2017, 07:45:30 AM
DunlopBob DunlopBob is offline
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Default Re: Fairbanks morse z 3hp ab33 windings

Quote:
Originally Posted by AKMark View Post
Check your points, the gap should be .014 if they are not set right your engine will run like crap.
Mark
Hi Mark I've checked the points and the gap is good I think my problem is after the spark bounces around over the breaks in the secondary winding it only sometimes reaches the HT lead where it is great sometimes, weak and weedy the rest of the time ( that's if it reaches the lead at all ).So I need to fix the coil as I want a spark I can weld with.

Thanks very much for your reply cheers Robbie
( let you know what happens )

---------- Post added at 12:45:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:44:08 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngrySailor View Post
I don't know specifically about your application, but secondary windings are usually many thousands of turns... Not that it CAN'T be done, but you might not find it enjoyable after the first few thousand

Andrew
Yes Andrew I expect to get very bored.
cheers Robbie
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  #5  
Old 08-06-2017, 07:49:31 AM
DunlopBob DunlopBob is offline
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Default Re: Fairbanks morse z 3hp ab33 windings

Started with this
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  #6  
Old 08-06-2017, 07:51:09 AM
DunlopBob DunlopBob is offline
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Default Re: Fairbanks morse z 3hp ab33 windings

Am about here at the moment.
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  #7  
Old 08-06-2017, 09:05:55 AM
AngrySailor AngrySailor is offline
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Default Re: Fairbanks morse z 3hp ab33 windings

A man of patience are we... That engine is looking real nice also! If you have access to a lathe maybe you could set up the feed rate to the thickness of your wire and wind your coil? Maybe use a friction block in the tool post to tension the wire.
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  #8  
Old 08-07-2017, 08:01:31 AM
DunlopBob DunlopBob is offline
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Default Re: Fairbanks morse z 3hp ab33 windings

Will need a lot of patience as similar coils can have as much as 16000 turns of wire in the secondary winding, this may take some time. The exact number of turns for this coil still eludes me, however I'll keep searching and see what I can find out.

---------- Post added at 01:01:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:58:38 PM ----------

If any one knows of any other magneto with the same armature I'd be interested to know what it is as that may help me determine the number of turns I need.

Robbie
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Old 08-07-2017, 07:13:08 PM
mmcdonald mmcdonald is offline
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Default Re: Fairbanks morse z 3hp ab33 windings

You're going to have to count putting it on. Why not count the footage as u strip the old off. Then you'll know.
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  #10  
Old 08-07-2017, 08:01:24 PM
DunlopBob DunlopBob is offline
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Default Re: Fairbanks morse z 3hp ab33 windings

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmcdonald View Post
You're going to have to count putting it on. Why not count the footage as u strip the old off. Then you'll know.
Hi I will measure the width of each layer and divide by the wire diameter hopefully that will give me a very close number of turns for each layer. Wish me luck.

Cheers Robbie
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  #11  
Old 08-08-2017, 09:58:31 AM
Kirk Taylor Kirk Taylor is offline
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Default Re: Fairbanks morse z 3hp ab33 windings

Quote:
Originally Posted by DunlopBob View Post
Hi I will measure the width of each layer and divide by the wire diameter hopefully that will give me a very close number of turns for each layer. Wish me luck.

Cheers Robbie
There likely will be a layer of paper between each layer of wire. You'll need to take that into consideration as well.
If you are going to strip it anyway, very carefully undo the outer wrap especially around the high tension connection. I recently was able to repair an AB33 coil that had the winding detached from the output terminal. I had to unwrap the outer insulation and the last wrap of wire in order to reconnect it. It was very tedious work but yielded a working coil when finished. Of course it's still a very fragile 100-year-old AB33 coil awaiting the next failure.

Kirk
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  #12  
Old 08-08-2017, 02:15:25 PM
Mitch Malcolm Mitch Malcolm is offline
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Default Re: Fairbanks morse z 3hp ab33 windings

The AB 33 coils in my experience were junk when they were made .. Good luck winding one by hand that being said I normally have new ones in stock.
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  #13  
Old 08-08-2017, 04:05:41 PM
DunlopBob DunlopBob is offline
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Default Re: Fairbanks morse z 3hp ab33 windings

Cheers I would be winding by machine, but will check the obvious as you describe first. I am trying to get another known to be bad mag and if I can I will strip it first and if the armature can be sorted fit it into my magneto hopefully the points plate is better than mine also. These things are hard to get in Scotland. Cheers for the info Robbie
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Old 08-10-2017, 12:51:26 AM
cobbadog cobbadog is offline
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Default Re: Fairbanks morse z 3hp ab33 windings

I looked at doing something similar with a British Seagull coil. I went onto YouTube to see how others rewind coils at home and it was interesting. After looking through so many there were a couple with formulas on how much of what gauge wire to use but got a bit technical for me.

My thought then was to remove the old wire and weigh it. Providing you are using the same gauge wire it should be right.

Another thought I had was that a good coil has certain values so you can wind on so much of the wire then check that value and keep going until it is reached. Do this with primary and secondary windings. I might be wrong but maybe it will work
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Old 08-10-2017, 06:33:37 AM
DunlopBob DunlopBob is offline
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Default Re: Fairbanks morse z 3hp ab33 windings

Quote:
Originally Posted by cobbadog View Post
I looked at doing something similar with a British Seagull coil. I went onto YouTube to see how others rewind coils at home and it was interesting. After looking through so many there were a couple with formulas on how much of what gauge wire to use but got a bit technical for me.

My thought then was to remove the old wire and weigh it. Providing you are using the same gauge wire it should be right.

Another thought I had was that a good coil has certain values so you can wind on so much of the wire then check that value and keep going until it is reached. Do this with primary and secondary windings. I might be wrong but maybe it will work
As I am on a similar venture just remember the weight of your wire will be mixed with the weight of paper layers and varnish just in case this throws your measurement out by an important amount.
Robbie
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Old 08-11-2017, 06:11:41 AM
DunlopBob DunlopBob is offline
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Default Re: Fairbanks Morse Z 3hp AB33 windings

https://youtu.be/WUd-V-d4olw
here is a link to how my engine used to run.

---------- Post added at 11:11:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:06:09 AM ----------

https://youtu.be/tH1G9K1xqWA
here it is with weak unreliable spark can get it to run at 180 rpm even like this so what will it be like firing every stroke?
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Old 08-12-2017, 12:58:54 AM
cobbadog cobbadog is offline
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Default Re: Fairbanks Morse Z 3hp AB33 windings

In the end I relented and bought a rewound coil replacement. The new one has a smaller diameter of windings on the core but the ohms measure up to spec. Maybe a different gauge wire was used in the remanufacture. The old coil I have been unravelling and so far the very fine wire on the outside layers is as thin as human hair or less and so far 20 layers have been peeled off with I don't know how many to go.
As I mentioned even if you start winding on the wire onto the core a few layers at a time and them take a measurement of the ohms reading. Once right change over to the next lot of wire. This was a demonstration I found on YouTube showing that if you add too much wire there is NO benefit or improvements to the ohms reading. If anything it started to fall off a bit.
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Old 08-13-2017, 03:34:23 PM
brownfrog brownfrog is offline
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Default Re: Fairbanks Morse Z 3hp AB33 windings

Hello Robbie:
Been there done that. The last AB33 we rewound was done with 12,000 turns of #40 on the secondary and 170 turns of #21 on the primary. Bad windings can be annoying. Also check the condenser lurking in the base of the armature for electrical leakage. Most found are bad. They will be in the .16-.2 Microfarad range. Polish and set the points for certain, make sure that the pivot freely. the steel pivot pin can grow rust and cause the points to float. When you disassemble,leave the two magnets fastened to the endcap and slide the whole assembly back as a unit.
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Old 08-13-2017, 04:14:03 PM
DunlopBob DunlopBob is offline
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Default Re: Fairbanks Morse Z 3hp AB33 windings

Quote:
Originally Posted by brownfrog View Post
Hello Robbie:
Been there done that. The last AB33 we rewound was done with 12,000 turns of #40 on the secondary and 170 turns of #21 on the primary. Bad windings can be annoying. Also check the condenser lurking in the base of the armature for electrical leakage. Most found are bad. They will be in the .16-.2 Microfarad range. Polish and set the points for certain, make sure that the pivot freely. the steel pivot pin can grow rust and cause the points to float. When you disassemble,leave the two magnets fastened to the endcap and slide the whole assembly back as a unit.
Thanks brownfrog
This is exactly the information I've been looking for, when you say #21 are you using the (awg) American wire gauge sizes as these vary when using uk wire gauge sizes?
Thanks again Robbie
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  #20  
Old 08-13-2017, 11:37:23 PM
joder joder is online now
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Default Re: Fairbanks Morse Z 3hp AB33 windings

2 websites to poke around in:

http://www.oldcroak.com

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbth...&Number=446733

Both are packed with tons of useful magneto information. The britbike one is an ultra-detailed rebuild of a bosch rotating armature magneto - the AB-33 is built just like a true 360° rotating magneto, it more or less operates on about a quarter turn of rotation.

One note - photobucket went full a$$#o\e recently and made photo hosting completely unbearable so the pictures on the britbike forum may or may not be viewable still but all of the info there is still good.

...And just a guess but you might want to listen to brownfrog - he may be the mad genius behind oldcroak
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