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Antique Farm Tractors Vintage farm tractors on rubber tires with various implements. Ford, John Deere, Oliver, McCormick and more.

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Reg vs. Racing fuel


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  #1  
Old 10-15-2019, 08:29:44 PM
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Photo Reg vs. Racing fuel

Thought this was interesting...



https://youtu.be/r9wlh9q32i4
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Old 10-15-2019, 10:32:55 PM
slip knot slip knot is offline
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Default Re: Reg vs. Racing fuel

Sounded like there was a lot of room for timing adjustments too. never did hear it rattle on either fuel.
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Old 10-16-2019, 01:52:11 AM
Vanman Vanman is offline
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Default Re: Reg vs. Racing fuel

I was also thinking that the optimum timing for each fuel would be different, and thus even more power difference might be obtainable...
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Old 10-16-2019, 07:49:03 AM
G Willikers G Willikers is offline
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Default Re: Reg vs. Racing fuel

Interesting. At the urging of friends here, I have started using Shell V-Power gasoline which is higher octane, non-ethanol:

https://www.shell.ca/en_ca/motorists...-gasoline.html

All of my tractors are hand start and it seems like they are starting more reliably with the new gasoline. However, I have only used it for a few months and have not been running the tractors enough to be able to make any clear claims.
The V-Power gas is about 20 cents a litre more than regular, which is not a big deal for all the tractors get used.
We all know what happens to regular gas over time!
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Old 10-16-2019, 08:58:19 AM
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Default Re: Reg vs. Racing fuel

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Originally Posted by Vanman View Post
I was also thinking that the optimum timing for each fuel would be different, and thus even more power difference might be obtainable...
I thought the same thing.. They could have possibly advanced the timing a little for the racing fuel and might have gotten a little more horsepower? I was impressed that just changing the fuel made a 4 hp improvement.
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Old 10-16-2019, 12:18:22 PM
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Default Re: Reg vs. Racing fuel

What a cute woman. Oh, there was a tractor there? Let me look again, missed it.
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Old 10-16-2019, 02:35:18 PM
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Default Re: Reg vs. Racing fuel

Same thing I've been saying For Years about the Hit & Miss Engines running better on High Octane Fuel.

They DON'T NEED the High Octane to Control Detonation, as they aren't even Remotely High Compression Engines needing the High Octane Fuels Slower Burn Rate (which Controls Detonation) but the Slower Burn Rate allows the Fuel to Burn/Expand throughout More of the Power Stroke, Versus having a Quick Explosion with a Spike in Pressure at Top Dead Center (from Low Octane Fuel) that Quickly Bleeds Off through the rest of the power stroke.

In a Low Speed Low Compression Engine it gives More Power because of that, while at Higher Speeds a Low Compression Engine Will LOSE Power running too high of an octane because the fuel isn't all burned during the power stroke. At a Mere 540RPM a Tractor Never Reaches that point of Losing power from it.

At 4,000 , 5,000 , 7,000RPM and Higher you will make The Most Power Your Engine Can Make by running The Lowest Octane it Can Handle without Detonation, and of course, The Higher The Compression, The Higher the Octane Requirements.

Ideally You would want to run Higher than needed Octane at Low Speeds for More Low-End Torque and then Switch Over to Lower Octane (as Low as the Compression Ratio Will Allow) as the RPM Increases, which would be damn near impossible to control with a carburetor, but with a set of custom heads with Dual Injectors plumbed into different Octane Fuels, it could be switched On-Demand as the RPM changed, up and down.

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Old 10-16-2019, 05:53:30 PM
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Default Re: Reg vs. Racing fuel

Redundant post... Sorry
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Old 10-16-2019, 05:54:44 PM
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Default Re: Reg vs. Racing fuel

I believe the IHC "M" tractor engine is running somewhere around 1450 rpm's..
The 540 rpm's is the PTO..
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Old 10-16-2019, 07:13:36 PM
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Default Re: Reg vs. Racing fuel

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Originally Posted by Fred Van Hook View Post
I believe the IHC "M" tractor engine is running somewhere around 1450 rpm's..
The 540 rpm's is the PTO..
Still Way Below the RPM where it would Lose power by running Higher Octane than needed.

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Old 10-17-2019, 10:38:17 AM
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Default Re: Reg vs. Racing fuel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Power View Post
What a cute woman. Oh, there was a tractor there? Let me look again, missed it.
Down Boy...down...that's Rachel, she used to do repair videos for Steiner Tractor, looks like her & her dad have branched out on their own.

I think the video showed exactly what it was supposed to...then all the experts get on the high horse, nit-pick & blow on about how much they know...
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Old 10-17-2019, 10:56:10 AM
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Default Re: Reg vs. Racing fuel

Quote:
Originally Posted by OTTO-Sawyer View Post
They DON'T NEED the High Octane to Control Detonation, as they aren't even Remotely High Compression Engines needing the High Octane Fuels Slower Burn Rate (which Controls Detonation) but the Slower Burn Rate allows the Fuel to Burn/Expand throughout More of the Power Stroke

This is exactly the case- SLOWER BURN RATE.

The piston is pushed by pressure, not heat. Heat is the mechanism which causes gas pressure to rise, thus, pressure.

There's two aspects of fuel burn that are necessary to understand... and it's best described while standing by a glassy-smooth pond. Throw a rock into the middle of the pond.

That's your spark.

See the wave eminating from where it landed? That's your flame-front. As that wave comes towards you, that's the line of a wildfire coming towards you, and it's going in all directions.

In a combustion chamber, that fire line starts at the plug, and proceeds away, and as it burns, the heat of fire causes the gases in it's wake to expand, which not only pushes on the piston, it increases the pressure of the UNBURNED gases, which makes them burn FASTER... as long as the mixture is good.

(I say that, because there's some chamber designs that are so lousy that all the fuel is in one spot, and the rest is generally wasted... and... there's fast-burn designs that do this on purpose).

The gas pressure pushes on the piston.

Get on a bicycle, and put the crank straight up. Stand on the pedal, and see how well you can climb a hill.

Doesn't work, does it? Get that crank at 90 degrees, you can climb.

Now imagine that your FLAME FRONT goes from spark to done in the FIRST FIVE DEGREES OF CRANK ROTATION. All that pressure, and no place to go.

Now instead, wait to light the fire 'till it's at say... 45 degrees. Now you have workable PRESSURE TIMING.

The fuel doesn't burn instantly, and... it's RATE OF BURN changes based on pressure, which... when the piston is MOVING... is CHANGING.

Flame speed is everything... and so it piston surface area, stroke, swept volume, connecting rod angle...

A slow-turning engine will make better use of fuel with a larger bore, longer stroke, later timing, and slower burn.

It might not make more HORSEPOWER, but it'll make more horsepower-per-hour-per-gallon.


Now, I think Rachel does a nice job of all these videos... and I won't dispute that a test that she observed a 4 horsepower difference on a PTO dyno... but, the difference of 4hp at 60 is under 10% change. The variabilities that occur in a driveway test could easily impact that at a level greater than what was demonstrated here. Without repeating the test a dozen times back and forth, I wouldn't be satisfied that the metrology method used here was particularly accurate. I can do ten pulls with my D17's PTO, and get that variation without changing the fuel at all...

The proper way to do it, would be to repeat the pulls LOTS of times, and then do proper statistical analysis. Do 25 pulls just to get the machine and dyno warmed up, and then use the first test fuel, then repeat with the second test fuel, then repeat with first test fuel, then second test fuel. Take EGT readings and coolant temp readings on the engine, and also on the dyno (it's hydrostatic!) through the WHOLE process. After a warmup, and 100 pulls of 50 each, you'll have a substantial army of data. Do appropriate mean and median, and draw your conclusions from that.

The reason here is metrological science: 4 horsepower indication isn't a change of 10%

It's a variablility of 5%. Let's say that tractor developed neither 60, nor 64... it actually developed NO MORE horsepower... It actually developed 62hp.

The measuring instrument and circumstances merely caused it to read 60 one time (cold), and 64 the other (warm). Statistically insignificant at this level of precision.
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Old 10-17-2019, 02:35:03 PM
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Default Re: Reg vs. Racing fuel

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronm View Post
Down Boy...down...that's Rachel, she used to do repair videos for Steiner Tractor, looks like her & her dad have branched out on their own.

I think the video showed exactly what it was supposed to...then all the experts get on the high horse, nit-pick & blow on about how much they know...
Rachel Gingell has a book out called:
Farmall Cub Encyclopedia
Published by Octane Press.

A good little book really.
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