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2006 NBIC addenda


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  #1  
Old 01-31-2006, 09:54:30 AM
LundMachineWorks LundMachineWorks is offline
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Default 2006 NBIC addenda

I have attached a link to the proposed 2006 NBIC addenda. http://www.nationalboard.org/Nationa...df/06draft.pdf

It is currently under public review. There are some proposed changes to the way welded repairs are made to historical boilers. Please don't shoot the messenger, make your own decisions! Voice your opinion to the National Board. It is a public code. Let's keep it safe, but reasonable!

Jeff Lund
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Old 01-31-2006, 10:11:20 AM
Mike McKnight Mike McKnight is offline
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Default Re: 2006 NBIC addenda

Hmmm, I can't see why they seem to be following the adage of "If it's old, it's got to be bad quality!" I can see higher repair bills on the horizons if they make all of us get a chemical analysis on the boiler metal before it's repaired. Just doesn't make sense to me.....
Mike
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Old 01-31-2006, 12:06:43 PM
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GaarScott GaarScott is offline
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Default Re: 2006 NBIC addenda

Well it would seem that we need to collectively respond to this proposed change through our various hobbyist groups, like the Minnesota Steam Engine Association or your own states hobbyist group. If we don't, as Mike pointed out, we will undoubtedly incur a higher expense for repairing boilers. I won't say much more on the topic, as it probably would seem slightly one sided; and as it has been pointed out before, the opposing team reads this stuff also. So instead of flying off the handle, I highly suggest that we speak as a unified voice, or as unified as we can to oppose this proposed change. Just my two cents worth.

Lawrence
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Old 01-31-2006, 12:48:46 PM
Mark L. Jordan Mark L. Jordan is offline
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Exclamation Re: 2006 NBIC addenda

Gentlemen,

This topic has been addressed by members of the task group on historic boilers working with the National Board. Other historic boiler repair organizations have also addressed this. Bottom line is that the first part of the verbage that basically states that "old boiler steel is of poor quality" has come under serious fire and hopefully will be deleted. The second part which requires testing will most likely remain. I have given this topic much consideration, and am of the opinion that even though there may be a (rather minimal?) cost incurred for testing while doing welded repairs, the test results and knowledge of boiler material quality will in the long run actually raise the value of the boiler as the future codes develop. What is not shown on this link concerning the National Board addenda is the overwhelming response to this topic stating that in the vast majority of cases, the old boiler steel is if equal or superior quality to the current materials being used, and lack of instances where welded repairs have failed.
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Old 01-31-2006, 01:06:58 PM
Peter Peter is offline
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Default Re: 2006 NBIC addenda

The line from the Adams family movie "be afraid be very afraid" comes to mind. We need more asme board involvment in historic boiler peservation, like my dog needs more fleas.
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Old 01-31-2006, 03:32:35 PM
Mike McKnight Mike McKnight is offline
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Default Re: 2006 NBIC addenda

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark L. Jordan
there may be a (rather minimal?) cost incurred for testing while doing welded repairs, the test results and knowledge of boiler material quality will in the long run actually raise the value of the boiler as the future codes develop. What is not shown on this link concerning the National Board addenda is the overwhelming response to this topic stating that in the vast majority of cases, the old boiler steel is if equal or superior quality to the current materials being used, and lack of instances where welded repairs have failed.
Mark, what kind of added dollars is it going to be to run the chemical analysis on the existing boiler steel?
Thanks,
Mike
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Old 01-31-2006, 06:35:01 PM
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Ken Majeski Ken Majeski is offline
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Default Re: 2006 NBIC addenda

Well, I sent a response to the Nat Board before the Dec Deadline. One of the things that bothers me about this is there is no criteria listed that the steel has to meet... Only that the test must be ran. You would think that it must have to meet some standard to Pass Or Fail...????

I have never heard of any welded repair fail even some of the old None Code ones...
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Ken Majeski, Ellsworth Wis.
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Old 01-31-2006, 09:35:27 PM
Bruce E. Babcock Bruce E. Babcock is offline
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Default Re: 2006 NBIC addenda

I saw the National Board's proposed wording regarding old boiler steel prior to attending the meeting of the historical boiler task group in Spokane, so I had time to do my homework. What I found was that the specifications for boiler steel were almost identical in the 1914, 1935, and 2004 editions of the ASME Boiler Code.

I am not a metallurgist. What I am presenting is analogous to a book report.

One of the changes in the specifications is that the allowable range of manganese was .3 to .6% in 1914, .35 to .6% in 1935, and was .55 to .98% in 2004. As you can see, some steel that was acceptable in 2004 would have not been acceptable in 1914 or 1935.

Another change is that, in 1914 and 1935, sulfur was limited to .04 or .05% max. depending on whether it was flange steel or firebox steel. Today, sulfur is limited .035% max.

The changes in the specs for sulfur and manganese result in an increased ratio of manganese to sulfur. According to the metallurgy textbook written by Johnson and Weeks, any excess manganese (over the amount necessary to satisfy all the sulphur) combines with what carbon is present forming a carbide of manganese. The carbide of manganese increases the hardness and strength, lowering the plasticity of steel.

It seems to me that the the goal of the early specs may have been to assure that there was no excess carbide of manganese, so that the steel would have a maximum of plasticity. Maybe a metallurgist can enlighten us on the details.

I told the group that was assembled in Spopkane that when I am ready to replace the bottom of the boiler in my Case, I am going to look for an old boiler where I can salvage a piece of good steel to make the repairs. I will be glad to get the chemical analysis done. I was told by one lab that the test should not cost more than about $50. However, if I install any new steel in the boiler I will also have that tested.

One of the things that I learned in Spokane is that there is no third-party verification of the accuracy of the numbers stamped on a piece of new boiler plate. As far as I know, no one is randomly selecting pieces of new boiler steel from fabrication shops and testing the chemical and physical properties and comparing them to the mill test sheets. I have heard tales of problems.

We learned here in Ohio, about two years ago, that the numbers stamped on new safety valves cannot always be relied on. Three new valves that did not perform as expected were returned by Ohio's chief boiler inspector to the National Board to be tested. All three valves failed the tests. The failures were so dismal that two more valves that had never been installed on a boiler were also tested. These failures were as dismal as the first three.

The implications of the quality of boiler steel and reliability of safety valves range far beyond the realm of historical boilers.

Sincerely,

Bruce E. Babcock
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Old 01-31-2006, 10:42:21 PM
Mark L. Jordan Mark L. Jordan is offline
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Default Re: 2006 NBIC addenda

In response to Mr. Mike McKnight,

I don't know what the testing charges could be, but hope that my friend Mr. Babcock may have answered your question. I also concurr with the above post by Mr. Babcock both as an engine owner and as an inspector.
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Old 01-31-2006, 11:57:03 PM
Chuck Sindelar Chuck Sindelar is offline
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Default Re: 2006 NBIC addenda

In the past, if certain criteria were met, pad welding to build up thickness was acceptable. Once this new chemical analysis tests are required, pad welding will no longer be an option if a piece first has to be cut out and sent to a lab. Same goes for the thinning on the lip of a hand hole. Or the thinned donut around a stay bolt. It was brought up at a recent WI boiler meeting that there is some new piece of testing equipment to run such tests without cutting out a sample. It is a small hand held device that one merely points at the object to be tested, and pull a trigger--and it reads out the chemical analysis. There can be little doubt that such a device would be out of reach for each of us to buy. But maybe a club could buy one--Or maybe some Companies already have them--maybe one could afford to hire this done? If this story checks out, this could take a lot of the pain out of this new testing requirement. We are presently checking into it.
chuck
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Old 02-01-2006, 03:41:02 PM
agsem agsem is offline
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Default Re: 2006 NBIC addenda

http://www.spectro.com/pages/e/p010101.htm

"The SPECTROSORT Metal Analyzer is the worlds most technologically advanced spectrometer. It is the ONLY battery operated hand-held OE spectrometer."

Greg Hayden
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  #12  
Old 02-01-2006, 04:40:05 PM
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Default Re: 2006 NBIC addenda

I found a quote on steel from an engineering discussion regarding the 9/11 tragedy. I think it is pretty staright forward.

"At 1022 degrees, steel reaches a point of elasticity, and at 1320 degrees it attains plasticity. Elasticity means that when the steel is bent, it returns to its original shape and will spring back. Plasticity means that the steel is permanently deformed and does not return to its original shape."

The higher the mangenese the lower the tempurature the steel becomes plastic and deforms(at least how I would interpret things) - basically what happens when you have no water over the crown. Does anyone know what the temp of the crown may get to with no water and a hot fire.

The higher manganese standards today may be a result of better steel making but I am not a metallurgist either

Doug
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Old 02-01-2006, 04:47:42 PM
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Default Re: 2006 NBIC addenda

Some more tidbits on steel

"Other materials are often added to the iron-carbon mixture to tailor the resulting properties. Nickel and manganese in steel add to its tensile strength and make austenite more chemically stable, chromium increases the hardness and melting temperature, and vanadium also increases the hardness while reducing the effects of metal fatigue. Large amounts of chromium and nickel (often 18% and 8%, respectively) are added to stainless steel so that a hard oxide forms on the metal surface to inhibit corrosion. Tungsten interferes with the formation of cementite, allowing martensite to form with slower quench rates, resulting in high speed steel. On the other hand sulfur, nitrogen, and phosphorus make steel more brittle, so these commonly found elements must be removed from the ore during processing."
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Old 02-05-2006, 09:14:10 PM
Pete Deets Pete Deets is offline
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Default Re: 2006 NBIC addenda

As additional information on costs, a railroad musuem I volunteer for has had samples tested for both chemical and physical properties at a bit over $100 per sample.
As to crownsheet temperatures, I could be a smart aleck and say the steel would not get much past the temperature of elasticity because that's about when the crown would fail and the resulting release of steam & water would scatter & put out the fire. In all seriousness several steam locomotive fireman training manuals quote an ignition temperature of 1800F for the fixed carbon contained in coal. That means with proper combustion conditions while using coal the fire STARTS at nearly 500 degrees above plasticity and gets hotter from there. Reason enough to keep proper water as well as give the crown and mud legs an extra rinse while doing your boiler wash.
Considering the tremendous amount of energy these vessels contain just a few inches from our skin the more I know about it the better I feel about operating it.
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