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Smolik Brother's M. Rumely - 36 or 40 HP?


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  #61  
Old 01-04-2009, 04:31:12 PM
Mark Schneider Mark Schneider is offline
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Default Re: Smolik Brother's M. Rumely - 36 or 40 HP?

I've noticed in recent photo posting that there are different length smokeboxes on the 36 engines. I assume the short ones are earlier engines and the long ones are the latest model.
Using the rivet count on the smokebox seam for length comparison I noted the following differences:
Rollag 36 - 7 rivets
Dalton 36 - 4 rivets
...and adding more smoke to an already hazy boiler ID...
Smolik unit - 6 rivets
Did Rumely change any of their boiler specs (ie pressure etc)when they changed the the smokebox length?
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  #62  
Old 01-04-2009, 04:55:29 PM
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Default Re: Smolik Brother's M. Rumely - 36 or 40 HP?

Here are some of the larger known Rumely Engines from an older list:
I know that many of these engines have changed hands since this list was printed, this list is an overview of what is out there.
25-85 1912 Dennis Rupert, Hillsdale, MI
40-140 1912 Art Anderson, Jordan, MN
36-120 Furuseth Brothers, Halstad, MN
32-110 George Gould, Alberta
30 Hayes, Owooso, MI
110 Justin Lee, TX
36-120 N.B. Martinson, MN
25-85 Reynold's Museum, Alberta
100 Reynold's Museum
25-85 Harold Ottaway, Wichita, KS
30-95 Paul Squire, Osage, IA
32-110 1912 Zimmerman, IA
40-140 #5675 Willis Abel, PA
30 1910 #5847 Steve Siewert, MY
36-120 #6541 Rollag, MN
25-85 1912 #5953 V.B. Adam, IL

I am sorry the rest is off topic, but hope to shed a little light on Rumely.

DISCLAIMER: BEFORE ANYONE GETS MAD AT ME, I AM NOT SAYING THAT RUMELY IS ANY BETTER OR WORSE THAN ANY OTHER MANUFACTURER. I AM JUST TRYING TO EXPLAIN A FEW DESIGN CHARACTERISTICS OF THE M. RUMELY ENGINE. IF YOU THINK IT IS A BAD DESIGN, OK. IF YOU THINK IT IS A GOOD DESIGN, OK.

Here is a picture of the back view of a late model Rumely engine.



Peter,

I agree with Oldtractors. The Arnold reverse is very simple. Cutoff can only be adjusted with the engine at rest and don't forget a 2 wrenchs, but, there is no sliding block to wear out, no links to get loose.

It was built with a simplistic mindset, they probably assumed that most engine owners and operators could not keep a complex design properly adjusted. I don't think it was a cheaper gear, as the Arnold required considerable machine work to make it. I am sure that some other valve gears may have been much cheaper to produce.

Nope, the Arnold is not a good gear for economy. Yes, it is simple, which in my opinion makes it an acceptable valve gear.

The engineers at Rumely never spent much time worrying about having things pretty either, in addition to allowing very few adjustments. They made "sledgehammers". Heavy, ugly, simple and made to do a job.

Rumely engineers made the valve quadrant simple also. Put it in one notch to turn the engine over, put it in the other to turn the engine under. No need for a neutral notch as it isn't needed to move the engine.

-Mark Thompson
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  #63  
Old 01-04-2009, 05:44:04 PM
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Default Re: Smolik Brother's M. Rumely - 36 or 40 HP?

Thanks Mark and OldTractors,

Those are good points. Just one nit maybe. The Rumely catalog states the double with the link motion had multiple notches both forward and reverse- But; I cannot see if they had a neutral notch. They also state the link motion was adjustable to take up the wear. Perhaps its only the single which lacks the neutral notch. Otherwise, I think thats something I would add if it were a link motion double.

Both valve systems boast renewal bronze bearings instead of babbitt. Thats nice.

I assume the double 20hp cost more than a single 20hp and the valve motion on the double were considered an upgrade or improvement over the single. Thats the implication I get from reading the catalog. Which system carrier over to the Advance Rumely?

The Rumley is a good looking engine in my eyes. And, those Canadian boilers look top notch. Is it ok, to say the Canadian boilers are better than the older design?
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Old 01-04-2009, 05:52:23 PM
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Default Re: Smolik Brother's M. Rumely - 36 or 40 HP?

Peter,

The Advance Rumely carried the Marsh gear.

I doubt if there would be room for the Arnold reverse in a doubles crankshaft.
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Old 01-04-2009, 06:35:39 PM
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Default Re: Smolik Brother's M. Rumely - 36 or 40 HP ???

The Smolik engine has, without a doubt, the late Canadian style dry bottomed boiler, which according to the parts book, were sent with a 175 pound pop off valve.

These 175lb. relief valves were sent with all the late spec boilers regardless of their size.

The earlier style boilers with the flat steam dome and minus the wing sheets were sent with 120 and 150 pound valves depending on the model. This might explain Smoliks 40HP rating, but I don't see where the engine was ever called a 40.

But, if the earlier 36's were equipped with 150lb. valves, wouldn't it make since to call a late 36 a 40 with a 175lb. relief valve?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Kunz View Post
I dont know anything about Rumely's but I have a question. I noticed the rear spokes are flat and round in front, is this common with Rumely's or was this engine pieced together from parts?
Steve,

Post 1913 is when Rumely went to the flat spokes front and rear. Prior to that, some of the plowing engines had flat spoke rears and round spoke fronts. I wish they kept the round spoke fronts as 4 flat spoke (16 & 20HP) or 5 flat spoke (25HP) on the outside of the front wheels are tough to climb on. They are never in the right spot to get a leg up.

-Mark Thompson

Last edited by Mark Thompson; 01-04-2009 at 09:50:28 PM. Reason: typo
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  #66  
Old 01-04-2009, 08:32:05 PM
Advance Rumely Universal Advance Rumely Universal is offline
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Default Re: Smolik Brother's M. Rumely - 36 or 40 HP?

so whats the history on Smoliks engine ? where did they get it at, what year did they buy it in, did they break it down some to haul it back then, any pictures exist of it when it was being used, how come it hasn't been restored yet in all these years, i don't remember seeing or reading hardly anything about this engine in the old iron men and e & e mags
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  #67  
Old 01-04-2009, 08:48:22 PM
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Default Re: Smolik Brother's M. Rumely - 36 or 40 HP?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Thompson View Post
Here are some of the larger known Rumely Engines from an older list:
-Mark Thompson
Mark,

Do you know when this list was created?

Dan
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  #68  
Old 01-04-2009, 09:26:44 PM
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Default Re: Smolik Brother's M. Rumely - 36 or 40 HP?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Thompson View Post
Here are some of the larger known Rumely Engines from an older list:
I know that many of these engines have changed hands since this list was printed, this list is an overview of what is out there.
25-85 1912 Dennis Rupert, Hillsdale, MI
40-140 1912 Art Anderson, Jordan, MN
36-120 Furuseth Brothers, Halstad, MN
32-110 George Gould, Alberta
30 Hayes, Owooso, MI
110 Justin Lee, TX
36-120 N.B. Martinson, MN
25-85 Reynold's Museum, Alberta
100 Reynold's Museum
25-85 Harold Ottaway, Wichita, KS
30-95 Paul Squire, Osage, IA
32-110 1912 Zimmerman, IA
40-140 #5675 Willis Abel, PA
30 1910 #5847 Steve Siewert, MY
36-120 #6541 Rollag, MN
25-85 1912 #5953 V.B. Adam, IL
-Mark Thompson
Mark:
I think the 36-120 Furuseth Brothers, Halstad, MN., and 36-120 N.B. Martinson, MN., are one and the same steam engine?

I believe Milton Martinson purchased the 36 H.P. RUMELY from the Fureseth Brothers around 1971?

I wish someone from the Dalton show would speak up, and give us more information!

Thanks Mark!

Gary K
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  #69  
Old 01-04-2009, 10:02:00 PM
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Default Re: Smolik Brother's M. Rumely - 36 or 40 HP?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Donaldson View Post
Mark,

Do you know when this list was created?

Dan
Dan,

I received the list in September 2005.

The list was published on: http://www.stationary-engine.com/pip...er/000317.html

It doesn't seem like that address is valid anymore.

I think the list was posted by Blake Malamaki. Maybe some of you know him and could find out how this list was compiled.

I have a printed copy of it but don't see like it would do much good to scan the list and post it here as I think it would be almost impossible to read.

-Mark Thompson
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Old 01-04-2009, 10:04:26 PM
Brad Hauck Brad Hauck is offline
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Default Re: Smolik Brother's M. Rumely - 36 or 40 HP?

Is this Ken Eder's engine ? 40-140 #5675 Willis Abel, PA
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  #71  
Old 01-04-2009, 10:06:26 PM
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Default Re: Smolik Brother's M. Rumely - 36 or 40 HP?

With the help from everyone we can probably perfect the list and make it current.

Brad
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Old 01-04-2009, 10:31:31 PM
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Default Re: Smolik Brother's M. Rumely - 36 or 40 HP?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Hauck View Post
With the help from everyone we can probably perfect the list and make it current.

Brad
Would enough of you be interested in doing this?

If so, we could start a new thread.

I would be happy to scan the pages that I have and post them on the new thread. At least it would be some what of a start.

Just let me know.

-Mark
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Old 01-05-2009, 12:12:13 AM
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Default Re: Smolik Brother's M. Rumely - 36 or 40 HP?

Sooooooooooooo...................
A 1909 7 1/2x14 at 150 psi = 36HP

A 1911 7 3/4x14 at 175 psi = ????

While the 40HP listing may not be in Rumely literature it's getting easier to see where the idea would have come from. Certainly Rumely salesmen would not have missed the opportunity to sell the later 7 3/4x14 engines as more HP than their earlier counterparts.

If the larger firebox on the Smolik engine would compensate for the missing flues old Ed may have been closer to the truth than we realise.

Just a moment while I pluck this crow.....
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Old 01-05-2009, 01:05:20 AM
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Default Re: Smolik Brother's M. Rumely - 36 or 40 HP?

Thought id flip through John Davidsons Winnipeg plowing information for fun to see what info was listed for the Rumely in 1910.
Bore (2)7 3/4x 14 @ 250 RPM, MPH 2.03, Water tanks 500imp. Gallons., weight 46480lbs, piston rod dia 1 1/4", specified pressure is 175, Authorized steam pressure 185 (110 case was 162) The Rumely was pulled at an avg of 133.9 hp in the 1/2hr brake test and run with an avg pressue of 176lbs (Case was 129hp-157lbs) Pulley was 41" by 12 wide. 30" wide wheels and unfortunately the sheet is cut of but i imagine it had the 10" extensions? It pulled 14 JD bottoms in the tests. Cost out of Winnipeg is $4300, 110 case was 3744. not sure if that includes extensions on these 2 engines or not.
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Old 01-05-2009, 09:07:05 AM
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Default Re: Smolik Brother's M. Rumely - 36 or 40 HP?

Colin
Do you have similar specs on the Reeves 40 and Avery 40?

It was interesting to see that unless Rumely screwed the safety valve down tighter still it would have been short of the "140 bhp" rating.
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Old 01-05-2009, 12:07:12 PM
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Default Re: Smolik Brother's M. Rumely - 36 or 40 HP?

Mark,
A Reeves 40 never ever visited the Winnepeg Contest.
Gary
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Old 01-05-2009, 12:34:13 PM
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Default Re: Smolik Brother's M. Rumely - 36 or 40 HP?

I re read all 76 posts on this tread and it seems there is no catalog record that Rumely ever called this engine a 40hp. So; that means for the average Joe they are all 36hp.

Whats not clear is: Do the owners of Rumely have an understanding among them selves that the Canadian boilers increase ~10% to the rating of all the engine sizes. So a 36 is 40 and 30 is 32 and 20 is 22. Is this just a slang or insider way of indicating the better boiler? This seems to be hinted at, but no one will come out and say anything directly. No one has come forward and identified as an owner of a Canadian Rumely and made any direct stmt either way- as an owner/insider. Rumely has its own magazine perhaps someone will write a letter and ask on that forum.

This thread has been a great education for me on Rumely line and earned my respect for the Canadian doubles.
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Old 01-05-2009, 01:01:08 PM
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Default Re: Smolik Brother's M. Rumely - 36 or 40 HP?

Don't all of the 36hp Rumelys have butt strap boilers? Aren't they all Canadian Specials with their butt straps? The Canadian rules came into play in December 1910 so anything built after that should have been built for Canadian trade? I know Reeves, Minneapolis and others built US and Canadian Special engines... I ran into that brick wall over the Minneapolis butt straps. The 28hp here at Kalispell with a butt strap boiler evidently isn't "street legal" in Canada? At Rollag, that 28hp butt strap is a Canadian Special. Then to confuse this old mind even more, there were triple rivet lap seam "Canadian Special" 110hp Case engines that were legal in Canada, before the butt straps were available.
Gary
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Old 01-05-2009, 03:45:05 PM
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Default Re: Smolik Brother's M. Rumely - 36 or 40 HP?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 20 Reeves Highwheeler View Post
Don't all of the 36hp Rumelys have butt strap boilers? Aren't they all Canadian Specials with their butt straps? The Canadian rules came into play in December 1910 so anything built after that should have been built for Canadian trade? I know Reeves, Minneapolis and others built US and Canadian Special engines... I ran into that brick wall over the Minneapolis butt straps. The 28hp here at Kalispell with a butt strap boiler evidently isn't "street legal" in Canada? At Rollag, that 28hp butt strap is a Canadian Special. Then to confuse this old mind even more, there were triple rivet lap seam "Canadian Special" 110hp Case engines that were legal in Canada, before the butt straps were available.
Gary
Gary,

I am guessing, but to me, even though both were buttstraps, it looks like the Dalton 36 has the earlier pre-Canadian type boiler rated at 150lbs. while the Smolik engine certainly does have the Canadian boiler and would be rated at 175lbs.

The Dalton 36 has no wingsheet and the Smolik does.

Again I am compiling heresay and opinion...but....From what I understand ALL Rumely Canadian spec boilers had wingsheets and there were no Canadian spec boilers without wingsheets? Is this right or wrong?

Enclosed are copies of the pictures of the Dalton 36 (left pic) and the Smolik "40" (right pic) showing the earlier and later variants.

As a comparison to Horsepower and Rumely's resistance to change ratings, A 10" x 10 1/4" 20HP single engine was called a 20HP from the earlier lap seam boiler at 120lbs., then again with the early buttstrap at 150lbs. then finally at 175lbs. with the Canadian boiler. Which one produced more power? Then why did Rumely classify them the same?

With competition from another manufacturer, it is easy to understand how a salesman would verbally increase the horsepower on the later models to make a sale. He wouldn't be lying.

-Mark Thompson
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Old 01-05-2009, 06:26:28 PM
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Default Re: Smolik Brother's M. Rumely - 36 or 40 HP?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider View Post
Colin
Do you have similar specs on the Reeves 40 and Avery 40?
Here's some stuff on the 1910 30-90 Avery at Winnipeg. the specified pressure is listed at 304 (anyone believe that for a pre-broderick boiler?, wait a minute, Gary and Tom, that must be the straight side boiler? ) its authorized pressure was 200, and it carried about 189psi during the belt tests. also lists high gear at 4.5mhp which i think should be 2.5? weight there was 36000lbs and cost new out of Winnipeg was $4000 it was run at 97hp for the 2 hr economy test and 124hp for the 1/2 max(not max) test. in 1911 they had the special 8x10 motor instead of the 7x10 and were just carrying 175psi. (Illinois boiler?) also noticed in 1911 there was the older 40 Gaar side mount DTCP there and it was called a 33-90.
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