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Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion Meet collectors of hit and miss engines, ask questions about collecting, restoring and showing antique flywheel engines.

Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion

IHC M 1 1/2hp 1919 Restoration


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  #1  
Old 09-14-2019, 11:16:41 AM
FunMobile FunMobile is offline
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Default IHC M 1 1/2hp 1919 Restoration

This engine hasn't run in 35+ years. I don't currently have any specific questions on the restoration, but I'm making this thread to document the process and because I will certainly have questions later on.







The engine is complete with the exception of the pin that connects the governor linkage to the throttle shaft. It has always been stored out of the weather, but has been stored in the cold for many years. The biggest issue is it doesn't have any compression.

My plan is to do a complete tear down. I spent 90 minutes yesterday and tore it apart as far as I've ever had an M tore apart, which you can see below. My plan is to get all those parts I'm familiar with shipshape before moving onto fully taking it apart.



Now that I have the head off I can hear a slightly gritty scraping sound in the cylinder. The sleeve feels smooth to the touch so I'm hoping the lack of compression is only due to corroded/shot rings. I have never changed a set of rings before so that will be a new procedure to learn. I have also never had to service a type L magneto or time an M.

For now I need to free up the fuel valve, get the fuel pump cleaned up, inspect the valves and seats, and remove the throttle butterfly because it's all corroded and the shaft it sits in is all corroded as well.
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Old 09-14-2019, 04:27:14 PM
Andrew Mackey Andrew Mackey is offline
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Exclamation Re: IHC M 1 1/2hp 1919 Restoration

Chances are the rings are just stuck. Remove the piston (it comes out the front) and free the rings, clean out the ring grooves. If the rings are in good shape, make sure to re-install in their original grooves. if worn out or broken replace. if the rest of the parts are in good shape, i would not do a complete tear down. As long as the bearings are in good shape, just adjust to minimum play and put back together If you install new rings, hone the cylinder. If not, and the bore looks good, leave as is as the rings are already seated to the bore. have a look at the block where the pin for the governor was supposed to be. the early engines did not have that pin. My 1919 11/2 m didnt have it from the factory, yours may not have had it either. While you have the piston out, spin the crank and see if the mag is hot Your biggest issue will be timing the ignitor to the mag. On an ignitor system, everything must be timed 'just so' that is all mechanical timings must be exact to get the best spark. if you have questions, ask, that is the only way you can learn, and we, here on the Stak, will be glad to help.

By the way, your engine is a kerosene burner, with the left side controlling water injection if you use kerosene under a load. believe it or not, you can save up to 25% of your fuel burning water if you are loaded up good! of course, you can just use gasoline in the tank if you want.
Andrew
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Old 09-14-2019, 05:21:43 PM
ScooterBob ScooterBob is offline
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Default Re: IHC M 1 1/2hp 1919 Restoration

For timing, set the ignitor trip timing so it trips off when the little notch in the flywheel is lined up with the mark on the bottom of the block. Then turn your mag so the shaft line is lined up with the notch in the bearing, then engage it to the cam gear and bolt in.
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Old 09-15-2019, 09:44:44 AM
FunMobile FunMobile is offline
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Default Re: IHC M 1 1/2hp 1919 Restoration

Thank you for the info, guys.

Andrew, I think I used the wrong words to describe which pin I was talking about. I think you're describing the pin that holds the sliding collar on the governor side of the crankshaft stationary. You are correct that this engine does not have that. The pin I was trying to describe you can see missing in the picture of the head I posted in my OP. You can see the arm that would normally travel vertically on the left side of the valves is hanging down.

Also, this line

Quote:
While you have the piston out, spin the crank and see if the mag is hot
leads me to believe you can remove the piston without removing the crankshaft. Would I be correct in that assumption? That would be extremely convenient.

---

ScooterBob,

That sounds like a pretty straight forward procedure and the pictures are much appreciated. This was my grandfathers engine and he has the two notches on flywheel painted and labeled, which makes that part easy. I'll be referencing your post again once I get that far.

---

I tore down the mixer yesterday and I cannot get the fuel valve out. I drilled a hole underneath it and gave it several good wacks with a hammer and punch and it won't go. I've got it soaking right now and will give it another try in a few days.

I also took the valves out. There is a little play in both valves (the exhaust is the worst one with close to a 1/16th in all directions) and the seats look great on the head and decent but not perfect on the valves. I've never serviced a valves before and do not have a cutting tool, will I do any harm taking some fine sand cloth to the valves seats and shafts?

Lastly, something else I noticed yesterday was if I wobble the flywheel back and forth there is clanking inside the crankcase. I'm assuming that means the bearing inserts on the connecting rod are shot. I've also never serviced any part of a piston/con rod/crank before so I'm flying by the seat of my pants a little, but I'm excited to learn.



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Old 09-15-2019, 11:55:08 AM
ScooterBob ScooterBob is offline
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Default Re: IHC M 1 1/2hp 1919 Restoration

The connecting rod cap is accessed through the hand hole on the back end of the block. There should be some shims between the cap and rod, some shims can be removed as needed to reduce bearing clearance. Once rod cap is removed, the piston and rod can be pushed out the head end.

You're missing the pin on the throttle lever, mine appears to maybe be riveted on, here's a pic of it.
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Old 09-15-2019, 12:05:53 PM
MFaris MFaris is offline
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Default Re: IHC M 1 1/2hp 1919 Restoration

Check out this Youtube playlist by ShopdogSam on restoring an IHC M:

https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=...4lqj1YtBxaJynF
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Old 09-15-2019, 03:00:52 PM
FunMobile FunMobile is offline
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Default Re: IHC M 1 1/2hp 1919 Restoration

Out through the head side! Duh!

MFaris, thanks for the playlist link. I have seen some of Shotdogsam's videos on M's before, but had not found a complete compilation of them. Those will be extremely helpful.
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Old 09-16-2019, 05:18:26 PM
Andrew Mackey Andrew Mackey is offline
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Default Re: IHC M 1 1/2hp 1919 Restoration

To set the con rod bearing, tighten the cap and see if there is play. if there is, remove 1 thin shim top and bottom and snug. Turn crank. If no drag, tighten cap and re-try. If still play, repeat until you get drag on the crank when tight. re-install one shim top and bottom and you should be good try lifting up on the flywheels. If they lift more than a 1/8', pull the caps and remove a shim from front and back, and re-check after tightenning. repeat until you get drag and re-instal a pair of thin shims until no drag is felt.The ms are very forgiving engines, you will have fun with it!
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Old 09-21-2019, 09:44:47 PM
FunMobile FunMobile is offline
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Default Re: IHC M 1 1/2hp 1919 Restoration

Made some more progress today. Few questions too.

Piston

The piston did not come out super easy. I cleaned up as much of the carbon build up off the last couple inches of cylinder that I could but I still had to gently pound it out with a piece of 2x2 and hammer. The rings were not stuck once I finally got the piston out. I do not know what this means as far as my compression problems go. Perhaps they freed themselves as I whacked it out? Here are some pics. Two before a wipe down, one after.







Mixer

Took the entire mixer apart and gave all the parts and pieces a good cleaning. Fuel valve is free, just need to go get an 1/8 inch plug to pop in the hole I drilled.

There are a couple remaining issues with the mixer. Both tubes that dip into the fuel wells are plugged. I blew some air into the front of the needle valve ports and put my finger inside the mixer to cover the back of the ports and got no air blowing out the vertical passageway inside the fuel wells. I don't have any idea how to get those passageways cleared up. If I were a betting man it looks like the small screw on the bottom of the mixer is directly below the blocked tube. I haven't ever seen any mention as to what that little screw does, but that would be my guess.

Less importantly, how would you go about getting the fuel valve handle tightened up and the needle valve knobs fixed to the stems? The fuel valve handle is very loose and both knobs are currently completely off the stems. Little dab of braze?



Magneto Test

Hooked the voltmeter up to the mag and spun the flywheels now that the piston is out. The voltmeter started jumping all over the place. Not exactly sure what it should be reading, but it would go from about 4 volts down to 1 or so in a somewhat regular and quick cycle.

While doing this there were some concernign noises. I took a video for you listening pleasure, or maybe horror. Not sure what that hi scratching sound is, but it sounds like it's coming from the magneto area. The rest is gear noise, but it also seems excessive to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaQ0...ature=youtu.be
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Old 09-21-2019, 10:15:38 PM
Jeremy Hartle Jeremy Hartle is offline
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Default Re: IHC M 1 1/2hp 1919 Restoration

Mag should put out 5-7 volts ac at running rpm of engine. Any less wont do jack. Sounds like a lot of gear noise. I'd yank the mag off and have a peek inside. Not sure about mixer someone will chime in. Clean them ring grooves real good. The rings need to "float" in the ring grooves meaning they need to push in the groove and out wit no resistance.. If they hang in the groove you wont get compression.
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Old 09-21-2019, 10:48:54 PM
FunMobile FunMobile is offline
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Default Re: IHC M 1 1/2hp 1919 Restoration

The reading I was getting was at as fast as I could get it turning by hand and I did have the voltmeter set to AC. So perhaps at speed things would be A-OK.
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Old 09-22-2019, 10:33:10 AM
Jeremy Hartle Jeremy Hartle is offline
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Default Re: IHC M 1 1/2hp 1919 Restoration

It might. I'm not sure how fast the mag turns at speed. I ran mine off a battery and coil and checked the mag that way. It sounds a little weak to me, maybe just needs recharged. That gear noise though might be a issue. I'd check that out.
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Old 09-23-2019, 10:54:41 PM
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Default Re: IHC M 1 1/2hp 1919 Restoration

Took the mag off this afternoon and put the drill on it and got a steady 6 volts. Apparently 35 years in a shed don't got nothing on this mag.

While the mag is off there is still quite a bit of gear noise. There is play on the came gear. I can wiggle it back and forth, click-click-click-click, against the crankshaft gear. Not sure what the tolerance between those two gears is supposed to be, but they're currently somewhat loosely coupled.

In other news I managed to get the throttle butterfly out and got the shaft it sits in cleaned up pretty well. Getting that screw with the broken head out was a real pain. I did bugger up the throttle shaft in the process so I'll have to buy another one of those.
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Old 09-23-2019, 11:09:11 PM
Jeremy Hartle Jeremy Hartle is offline
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Default Re: IHC M 1 1/2hp 1919 Restoration

How does the mesh look. It could be possible that a gear was replaced years ago and not run much. You'll get gear noise if the wear dont match. If the teeth are sharp enough to shave with you may need to find replacements. The mag voltage should be fine. The proof will be in the pudding when you start it.
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Old 09-24-2019, 07:43:15 AM
ScooterBob ScooterBob is offline
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Default Re: IHC M 1 1/2hp 1919 Restoration

If you have a lot of play in the cam bearing it could be allowing the gears to mesh tight.
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Old 09-25-2019, 10:22:58 PM
forney00c forney00c is offline
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Default Re: IHC M 1 1/2hp 1919 Restoration

On the mixer, the small screw allows access to the fuel pickup tube for cleaning. The other fitting is a check valve that separates the water valve from the hole in the head that I believe comes out the pulley side of the head where a copper line would then come down to the water hopper drain under the cylinder, allowing the mixer to pull water up to inject while running on kerosene.
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Old 09-26-2019, 09:05:46 PM
FunMobile FunMobile is offline
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Default Re: IHC M 1 1/2hp 1919 Restoration

There is not very much play in the cam shaft. A little more play from side to side than up/down or left/right, but not much for any of them.

Attached is a pic of the mesh. Looks good to me, but I'm not exactly sure what signs I'm looking for.

forney00c, thanks for the confirmation of what that little plug does. I spent half an hour trying the get that little sucker out of the bottom of the mixer with no luck. Ended up eventually ruining the slot, so I drilled it and took two different EZ-outs to it with no luck. My hole is pretty well centered so I think I might have to drill it out as large as I can then try to tap the leftover brass out. I did some searching but could not find what size threads those are. Does anybody know?
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Old 09-27-2019, 07:16:15 AM
forney00c forney00c is offline
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Default Re: IHC M 1 1/2hp 1919 Restoration

When I had the 2 needle mixer off of my 6 HP, the water check valve was in poor shape. I couldn't seem to loosen the brass piece, so I drilled it out big enough to get the odd square check "ball" out and clean inside. Then I installed a steel check ball and machined a brass bushing for a seat that I then pressed into the hole I drilled in the original brass.

One of my friends asked why even bother with it, but I figured I wanted the water siphon to work in case I ever got a wild hair and decided I wanted to run it on kerosene.
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Old 09-27-2019, 12:23:15 PM
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Default Re: IHC M 1 1/2hp 1919 Restoration

Sounds like a good solution. As yet I haven't touched the water check valve and I probably won't because I don't even plan on running this on kerosene.

Currently though I'm gonna need to figure this other brass plug out, can't be having an open house under the fuel well!

There's so much information about M's on these forms I try to search for the answers before asking in this thread so the same folks don't have to answer the same questions over and over. This time I can't find hardly any information about that little plug. I think I'm probably searching the wrong terminology. I've tried everything from "ihc m two needle pickup tube cleaning" to "ihc m carb plug" with no luck.
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Old 09-29-2019, 08:18:43 PM
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Default Re: IHC M 1 1/2hp 1919 Restoration

Well, it's turning into a full mean deal now.



That's ok because I meant for this engine to be a full crash course for me. I've got two other M's that run but could use some fine tuning so I figured it's better to tear apart the one that doesn't run first.

Looking in the cylinder you can see rust from the rings where the piston sat for ages.



I worked on cleaning the inside of the cylinder with scotchbrite and some oil, but didn't quite get those rust marks gone yet. Here's a before picture of the front (back?) of the cylinder before I did any cleaning.



There is a pretty heavy lip in the cylinder at the end of the piston's range of movement. I do not have a mic but it is easily felt. Unmissable really. When I checked the ring gaps I checked them only a 1/2" or so in from the head side and they all read about double the recommended .004/inch of cylinder diameter. Once I pushed them back past the lip my feeler gauge didn't go large enough. Does this mean I need new rings, a new sleeve, or both?

There's also this funky divit outside the piston's range of movement. That ring a millimeter or two further in is where the ID widens.



Lastly, it had a homemade gas tank in it. It doesn't have any holes so I'm going to clean it up and reuse it.

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