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Need your help with Fuller and Johnson NC


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Old 03-06-2017, 01:04:39 PM
Coomba Coomba is offline
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Default Need your help with Fuller and Johnson NC

I'm sorry to repeat this, I know there has been plenty of information passed around. Believe me, I have read it all, and have tried all of the information, but still have came up short. I have a 2HP. Fuller and Johnson NC that I just can't get to run. I have found the timing marks, and they were correctly set. I found the word snap on the fly wheel, and made sure the mag. fired when it was suppose too. I have changed the position of the timing gear, one tooth before, then one tooth after the manufactures settings. Still nothing. I have set the exhaust vale according to information sheet from David's Old Engines. I have set the ignition timing before ,after at different degrees. Changed the mixer setting, sometime flooding the engine, then clearing by holding in the intake valve. I have a very good spark. I can hold the spark plug wire away from the head and it will jump to it with a fat spark. What the heck am I missing?
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Old 03-06-2017, 01:10:32 PM
WCraig WCraig is offline
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Default Re: Need your help!!

Is it even hitting like it's attempting to start? If there's fuel and spark, you should be getting something.
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Old 03-06-2017, 02:06:49 PM
emu15 emu15 is offline
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Default Re: Need your help!!

Does it have good compression?It wont fire if it hasnt enough compression.
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Old 03-06-2017, 02:14:55 PM
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Default Re: Need your help!!

When you take the plug out and lay on head is there spark at the tip of plug or down inside of the plug? Since it has flooded it might be shorting out up in the plug, in a pinch, you can take a propane torch and burn the inside of the plug out, somtimes. My 21/2 NC spoke heavy wheels, likes one good choke, then open choke up and runs good about half choke. One good way that unfloods them and works on XK Economys to and others , is whip the flywheels back toward the head, which trips the mag and opens the exhaust real fast which burns off the gas fast, it will also bump start like this to at times. If you have another plug try that if it has been flooded bad, also your compression is good? You might have to belt it up to another engine to get it to fire the first time, to limber it up to, if the timing is right and exhaust timing ,also both sides of the mag are tripping or coming down at the same time and not cocked, sometimes a wore roller in the EK trip will give a guy fits , but should at least pop and snort.
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Old 03-06-2017, 05:14:51 PM
Andrew Mackey Andrew Mackey is offline
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Exclamation Re: Need your help with Fuller and Johnson NC

Is the p[lug wet with gas after you try to start it? if so, try changing out the spark plug. Todays gas shorts under compression. you will have spark out of the engine, but under compression, the plug will short, and spark will not jump the gap. As Rich Miller Sr stated, sometimes heating the plug with a propane torch for a minute or two will help, if the insulater does not have carbon on it. If there is carbon, then it has to either be burnt off or cleaned, as carbon will short the spark to ground. What is the plug gap? It should be .025". Do the flywheels bounce back against compression or do they just mush to a stop? If no bounce back, then compression will be too low to power the engine. If you have liquid gas flowing past the piston, then the engine is flooded and you are washing lube oil off the piston and rings, which will drop compression. What color is the spark you are getting off the magneto? Bright blue is OK Pale thin blue means either weak magnets or a poor coil / mis-set points gap. Weak whitish to orange, possibly a bad condenser or bad or oily points. When the mag trips, do both poles break evenly, or does one side break before the other? If so, the mag needs to be rebuilt. Both poles must break at the same time to get consistant spark.

If your engine is flooded, you must clear out the cylinder to get the mixture lean enough to fire. Close the fuel adjuster, remove the spark plug and ground it. Turn the engine over to bring in fresh air. The alternative is to manually hold in the detent, to hold the exhaust valve open, and turn the engine over. On a severely flooded engine, I remove the spark plug and ground the high tension lead. A lit propane torch is held to one side, with the flame near the spark plug hole, and the engine rotated. On the compression stroke, the fuel/air mixture from the cylinder is driven out the spark plug hole, where the torch will light it. The resulting flame will burn off excess gas in a hurry. NOTE - DO THIS OUT DOORS, AND DO NOT STAND IN FRONT OF THE SPARK PLUG HOLE. If flooded, the flame will come out of the hole like a blow torch, which can lead to severe burns.

My sons NC has a very finicky fuel setting It takes time to learn what the engine wants, and weather conditions, elevation changes change the fuel setting considerably! for instance, running it at Jacktown (about 800 feet above sea level), the engine wants about 3/4 turn out from seated. Running at Delaware Valley, (about 200 feet above sea level), it wants about a full turn from seated. Even running on different days, at the same location mean changes in the setting!

Things to check: Is the plug free of carbon and dry? Mag breaking evenly? On retard, the mag should be tripping right at TDC Compression Is the fuel check holding? On my sons engine, the valve MUST be absolutely clean. If there is any debris in the tank or valve, the engine will not run. Are you getting fuel into the engine? If the plug is dry, and you do not smell gas, perhaps you either have a plugged fuel line or the check is stuck/not working. How old is the gas? Gas older than 30 days does not perform well, if at all in an unsealed fuel tank. Let us know what you find.
Andrew
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Old 03-06-2017, 08:18:36 PM
Mikey NY Mikey NY is offline
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Default Re: Need your help with Fuller and Johnson NC

I had similar trouble with a stover. I gapped the spark plug down to .016, and it fired right up. been runnin fine ever since. Its an easy thing to try.
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Old 03-06-2017, 09:00:35 PM
Coomba Coomba is offline
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Default Re: Need your help with Fuller and Johnson NC

I'll try to answer everyone's questions. The engine has good compression, enough that I get a sore shoulder trying to get it started. It will bounce back hard if I don't put enough force into it. When it floods, I clear it by holding open the intake valve and rotating the flywheel a few times. I have also used a torch to clear the cylinder. Surprising thing is, that when it floods, the spark plug is never wet. The plug is brand new, and is gaped at .024. It does seem that the plug could extend farther into the head then it does. It has a healthy blue spark when shorted on the head. The fuel is bought new, and contains no ethanol. I have started with small increments when opening the fuel valve, up to complete turns. choking it once then turning it over with no choke. I can't even get a small fart out of it! There has to be something I'm overlooking. I would like to walk away from it for about a week, then come back with a fresh pair of eyes, but I can't seem to keep my mitts off of it!!
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Old 03-06-2017, 09:26:41 PM
fullernc27 fullernc27 is offline
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Default Re: Need your help with Fuller and Johnson NC

i am having kinda the same problem. heres what happen the mag bracket broke off i brazed it and now it goes to fire and spins backwards any ideas all i did was fixed the bracket but before that it was running great. if any one can help and maybe show some photos

Thanks John
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Old 03-06-2017, 09:46:18 PM
Mikey NY Mikey NY is offline
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Default Re: Need your help with Fuller and Johnson NC

Your engine will run. sometimes stepping away is impossible. I had the same " cant keep my hands off it" til I got it running mentality. If it is a wico mag, look at adjusting the trip mechanism. I know you have spark outside the engine, but revisit those mag adjustments again. Also, be absolutely certain the exhaust valve is closing just after top dead center, NOT BEFORE TDC. google " tramming", a gas engine magazine article about engine timing. It is a good explanation about timing in general and how to get it right. Your engine WILL run. You will be relieved when it does. and then on to the next challenge.
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Old 03-06-2017, 10:31:57 PM
OldStover OldStover is offline
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Default Re: Need your help with Fuller and Johnson NC

Ill try to help.

If you believe your magneto is providing a strong spark and the engine is timed decent, then I personally would do this first off:

You need to try a different plug. I had a very similar situation and I was trying to get an engine firing off of a strong buzz coil (best spark you can get) yet I was having the same problem. The plug was like yours and seemed good in every aspect, but under very good compression it was failing some how. It would even cough once in a while. I have also had junk plugs out of the box.

If that's not the problem and you seem pretty sure its not, then I think it has to be intake valve spring or carburetor (not correct, or gasket interfering with venturi effect. If you know that in fact the exhaust valve timing is close, and the ignition timing is close -these don't have to be perfect to get it to cough or backfire once in a while, then I would then take the plug out and spray some ether in there. (I know a lot of people don't like it, and I use it very sparingly, but in a situation like yours where you are at wits end, I would then try it. Just don't use a lot of it, it will be fine.) , put the plug back in, turn the needle valve off on the carb and carefully spin it over, be very careful of sudden firing or backfiring!

When you do that it should completely eliminate the Fuel system as a culprit and you will know if you are getting spark, or "hot" enough spark. I've had a weak magnet mag that would spark nice outside, would spark ether, but would not spark gas under compression.

Other then that I would suspect that the needle valve is off-angle, creating a situation where you are too lean or flooded no matter what you do.

The other possibility would be that your intake spring is too loose. If you have a dry plug even when the engine is flooded, that makes me think that your carb is drawing fuel up fine but it is not being sucked far enough into the engine. A weak or too low of tension spring will allow the intake valve to open up too much and will cause the fuel charge mixture to be off, or just not enough vacuum to pull the complete full charge into the ignition chamber.

I believe if you look into those things you will have the engine running in no time.

---------- Post added at 06:31:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:22:23 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by fullernc27 View Post
i am having kinda the same problem. heres what happen the mag bracket broke off i brazed it and now it goes to fire and spins backwards any ideas all i did was fixed the bracket but before that it was running great. if any one can help and maybe show some photos

Thanks John
Sounds like its firing too early now, the timing on the trip arm must be off now.

Loosen the trip arm assembly and move it back a little bit, and keep making small adjustments till its timed right, or follow the timing procedure for the trip arm, search wico type 2 and you should find it.

Last edited by OldStover; 03-07-2017 at 12:53:28 AM.
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Old 03-07-2017, 10:05:01 AM
DanH DanH is offline
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Default Re: Need your help with Fuller and Johnson NC

I have a NC that I also had problems starting when I first bought it. Turned out to be cam timing and what appeared to be timing marks on cam and crank gear when lined up did not work. Ended up moving 3 or 4 teeth to get it correct, ran like a champ after that. Looks like we're less than 10 miles apart!
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Old 03-07-2017, 11:08:29 AM
Coomba Coomba is offline
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Default Re: Need your help with Fuller and Johnson NC

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldStover View Post
Ill try to help.

If you believe your magneto is providing a strong spark and the engine is timed decent, then I personally would do this first off:

You need to try a different plug. I had a very similar situation and I was trying to get an engine firing off of a strong buzz coil (best spark you can get) yet I was having the same problem. The plug was like yours and seemed good in every aspect, but under very good compression it was failing some how. It would even cough once in a while. I have also had junk plugs out of the box.

If that's not the problem and you seem pretty sure its not, then I think it has to be intake valve spring or carburetor (not correct, or gasket interfering with venturi effect. If you know that in fact the exhaust valve timing is close, and the ignition timing is close -these don't have to be perfect to get it to cough or backfire once in a while, then I would then take the plug out and spray some ether in there. (I know a lot of people don't like it, and I use it very sparingly, but in a situation like yours where you are at wits end, I would then try it. Just don't use a lot of it, it will be fine.) , put the plug back in, turn the needle valve off on the carb and carefully spin it over, be very careful of sudden firing or backfiring!

When you do that it should completely eliminate the Fuel system as a culprit and you will know if you are getting spark, or "hot" enough spark. I've had a weak magnet mag that would spark nice outside, would spark ether, but would not spark gas under compression.

Other then that I would suspect that the needle valve is off-angle, creating a situation where you are too lean or flooded no matter what you do.

The other possibility would be that your intake spring is too loose. If you have a dry plug even when the engine is flooded, that makes me think that your carb is drawing fuel up fine but it is not being sucked far enough into the engine. A weak or too low of tension spring will allow the intake valve to open up too much and will cause the fuel charge mixture to be off, or just not enough vacuum to pull the complete full charge into the ignition chamber.

I believe if you look into those things you will have the engine running in no time.

---------- Post added at 06:31:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:22:23 PM ----------



Sounds like its firing too early now, the timing on the trip arm must be off now.

Loosen the trip arm assembly and move it back a little bit, and keep making small adjustments till its timed right, or follow the timing procedure for the trip arm, search wico type 2 and you should find it.
Good ideal,gonna get a new plug, and some starting fluid. That should at least eliminate if it's a fuel problem.

---------- Post added at 09:08:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:03:58 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanH View Post
I have a NC that I also had problems starting when I first bought it. Turned out to be cam timing and what appeared to be timing marks on cam and crank gear when lined up did not work. Ended up moving 3 or 4 teeth to get it correct, ran like a champ after that. Looks like we're less than 10 miles apart!
Off
If I move the timing gears, seems like I can't get the exhaust valve set properly.
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Old 03-07-2017, 12:37:01 PM
Jeff P Smith Jeff P Smith is offline
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Default Re: Need your help with Fuller and Johnson NC

Is there a chance a passage is plugged and you are not getting fuel to the cylinder, you could pull the plug and squirt some gas in the cylinder and try starting. see if you get a pop
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Old 03-07-2017, 08:35:28 PM
Coomba Coomba is offline
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Default Re: Need your help with Fuller and Johnson NC

Made a trip to Auto Zone today. Picked up a can of starting fluid, and ordered a new spark plug. It will be in on, Thursday. Sprayed a little fluid into the cylinder, while varying the opening on the fuel valve. From closed to a full turn. At that point the engine would flood. I did get a pop when doing this. Never more than one per try. I couldn't really tell if the pop was coming from the exhaust, from my position so I put a paper cloth in the mixer, and it sucked it in. Later after several tries, and a sore shoulder I noticed a black puff from the exhaust. Rechecked my spark to ground, and it was very good. By this time my butt was dragging so I came in for the day. Just a thought, every video that I have watched of a 2 hp. F&J running the push rod never leaves the rocker arm. Is that normal? I have at the least an inch of gap.

Last edited by Coomba; 03-07-2017 at 08:55:08 PM. Reason: more info
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Old 03-07-2017, 09:01:31 PM
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Default Re: Need your help with Fuller and Johnson NC

Coomba,
When I get a new engine or have trouble like you're having. I like to disconnect fuel line & attach a temporary hose or tubing with fittings to the mixer. Then close the needle valve, blow in open end of hose & determine if valve shuts off supply completely and if slowly opening valve is gradual or "all of a sudden" increase in flow. I've had some that would not shut off flow at all & others that would be wide open in les than a sixteenth of a turn.
When you get the new plug give a squirt of your fluid or gasoline directly into cylinder & keep needle valve closed. When it fires gradually open needle the amount you found in first step to be partially open. When you get the mixture right it should hit hard enough to get thru a couple of revs.
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Old 03-08-2017, 04:01:32 PM
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Default Re: Need your help with Fuller and Johnson NC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Kimball View Post
Coomba,
When I get a new engine or have trouble like you're having. I like to disconnect fuel line & attach a temporary hose or tubing with fittings to the mixer. Then close the needle valve, blow in open end of hose & determine if valve shuts off supply completely and if slowly opening valve is gradual or "all of a sudden" increase in flow. I've had some that would not shut off flow at all & others that would be wide open in les than a sixteenth of a turn.
When you get the new plug give a squirt of your fluid or gasoline directly into cylinder & keep needle valve closed. When it fires gradually open needle the amount you found in first step to be partially open. When you get the mixture right it should hit hard enough to get thru a couple of revs.
The valve and seat are brand new, but I did follow your advice. When closed no air escaped, and a gradual movement of air was felt when I opened the valve slowly. Also tried your recommendation of squirting fuel directly into the cylinder. I got one pop, on just about every try, but nothing else.
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Old 03-08-2017, 06:17:07 PM
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Default Re: Need your help with Fuller and Johnson NC

Coomba,
Are you using gasoline or starting fluid? Gasoline might give more than one pop or use a little more & squirt some in the mixer too. You're getting there.
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Old 03-08-2017, 08:44:50 PM
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Default Re: Need your help with Fuller and Johnson NC

Yeah either or starting fluid is good for one maybe 2 pops , I have a trusty old style mustard bottle or ketchup bottle that restaurants of yester year used to have on the tables, I fill it with gas and works great for a squirt in a plug hole or the carb holes on my Associateds, and, in the carbs on flattop Challenges. Been used at many shows and have converted some people on old mustard bottles to LOL. Anyway you could post a video of the set up you have on a youtube? That would help all of us maybe a problem could be seen that you dont??
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Old 03-09-2017, 12:59:02 PM
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Default Timing Nomenclature

Thinking that the reason I can't get my fuller and Johnson running is more of a timing problem. I believe what I understand is correct, but I would like to get some clarification form you experts. I will not add my thoughts to these definitions as that will only help to gum things up. From David's Old Engines. Please explain. Below dead center, above outward dead center, and above rear dead center. Also it says that the distance below center is governed by the speed of the engine. My engine runs at 600 RPM. Meaning 48 Degrees below dead center?? This would, fire the engine way ahead of snap on the flywheel, and looks to my beginner eyes, that if it did fire there, it would cause the engine to rotate in the opposite direction.
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Old 03-09-2017, 01:28:25 PM
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Coomba, as you are troubleshooting your problem, it helps to keep your thread in one post. That way, the experts on here can keep up with the whole problem and whole set of issues. Ive learned that the knowledge available on here can fix any problem. Im sure you will get your Fuller running.
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