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Trivia - Early engine design (very early gasoline fueled)


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  #1  
Old 10-18-2011, 01:21:41 PM
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Default Trivia - Early engine design (very early gasoline fueled)

Here is a question for any of you. Name a gasoline fueled FLAME IGNITION slide valve engine. There were a few that were gasoline slide valve such as Benz, and Spiels and Marcus, but their ignition was by other than direct carrier flame. I am sure there were a few but I am only aware of one. OK you "non-common" slide valve enthusiasts, here is your chance! I will post a clue tomorrow is everyone is stumped.

Last edited by Wayne Grenning; 10-18-2011 at 03:16:48 PM.
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Old 10-18-2011, 01:29:04 PM
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Default Re: Trivia - Early engine design ( very early gasoline fueled )

Wasn't there one made by Goulds?
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Old 10-18-2011, 01:35:57 PM
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Default Re: Trivia - Early engine design ( very early gasoline fueled )

Damn, that was the question on final Jeopardy last night...

Wayne when Deutz was testing a benzine engine was it electric ignition or slide valve??
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Old 10-18-2011, 01:48:13 PM
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Default Re: Trivia - Early engine design ( very early gasoline fueled )

Jon, To the best of my knowledge, Deutz only made the surface carburetor fueled Benzine ( production) engine with LT magneto & ignitor. The earliest existing Deutz gasoline engine is located at the Technikum in Germany - it is set up with make and break ignition.

Last edited by Wayne Grenning; 10-18-2011 at 03:15:59 PM.
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Old 10-18-2011, 03:36:48 PM
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Default Re: Trivia - Early engine design ( very early gasoline fueled )

Clarification. The Spiel was a flame ignition liquid fuel engine. It only used the slide for ignition not fuel and air admission. My mistake! OK so other than the Spiel, name a liquid fuel flame ignition slide valve engine. Thanks for the correction JT!

Here is a hint.

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Old 10-18-2011, 03:42:24 PM
George Kulisiewicz George Kulisiewicz is offline
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Default Re: Trivia - Early engine design ( very early gasoline fueled )

Robert Street Oil engine??
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Old 10-18-2011, 03:59:19 PM
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Default Re: Trivia - Early engine design (very early gasoline fueled)

OK Wayne, I'll take a couple of stabs at this. I think possibly there was more than one gasoline fueled slide valve engine. What about the early Benz engine that was used in the auto? I know it was a slide valve and I read (Hemmings maybe?) that it was built in a Benzine and then a gasoline model. Another that I would suggest is the Charter. I have a catalog cut of an early Charter and it is a slide valve. It appears the slide valve is used only for ignition. Charter billed itself (even in the ad I think) as the "Original Gasoline Engine". ???? Just some thoughts for you.
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Old 10-18-2011, 04:16:28 PM
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Default Re: Trivia - Early engine design (very early gasoline fueled)

The Benz that was used in the auto wasn't flame ignition.
The slide was just for air and gas.

Be neat to see that Charter pic tho Tommy!!

By the look of your "hint" Wayne the slide operates vertically and is controlled from the top so I'll throw out an inverted guess of Griffin??

Last edited by Sad Iron; 10-18-2011 at 04:23:13 PM. Reason: taking a guess
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Old 10-18-2011, 05:03:31 PM
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Default Re: Trivia - Early engine design (very early gasoline fueled)

Tommy, I agree, there were probably several mfgrs. of these. It would be neat to see the early Charter pic. It may indeed be one of these "uncommon" slide valves. As Jon mentioned, the Benz was electrically ignited. By the way ,The Marcus engine of the 1880's made in Vienna, was liquid fueled, slide valve and wipe spark ignition.

The cylinder in the mystery engine is indeed of the vertical configuration, but not a Griffin, it was fueled by illuminating gas.
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Old 10-18-2011, 06:23:52 PM
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Default Re: Trivia - Early engine design (very early gasoline fueled)

Yup, I remember now reading that the Benz engine was eletrically fired. I'll scan the Charter and post it.
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Old 10-19-2011, 05:49:18 AM
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Default Re: Trivia - Early engine design (very early gasoline fueled)

Another hint - however the fuel source is not shown here.
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Old 10-19-2011, 07:24:56 AM
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Default Re: Trivia - Early engine design (very early gasoline fueled)

Hi Wayne,

Thats a bit more than a clue.

1879, 2 stroke

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Old 10-19-2011, 09:17:32 AM
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Default Re: Trivia - Early engine design (very early gasoline fueled)

Wittig&Hees , Germany?
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Old 10-19-2011, 11:11:59 AM
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Default Re: Trivia - Early engine design (very early gasoline fueled)

Bert - you got it !

It appears to have been a very low production engine. As Wayne Timms said it was 2 cycle and was introduced into the market at the same time as the Clerk just before 1880
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Old 10-19-2011, 08:21:55 PM
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Default Re: Trivia - Early engine design (very early gasoline fueled)

Here is the Charter I mentioned in the earlier post. This is a poor quality scan that I got somewhere and isn't the exact scan that I've been trying to find. This engine appears to have a slide valve ignition system on it but I could be wrong.
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Old 10-20-2011, 08:46:12 AM
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Default Re: Trivia - Early engine design (very early gasoline fueled)

Here is a little more information on the Wittig & Hees. The drawing I posted above was actually for their earlier Gas engine. Below are a couple cuts of the 1880 Gasoline Flame Ignition Version.
The text I have read ( translated) on this engine says it was very difficult to start and keep running. The challenges of using a gasoline flame for the ignition in a carrier ignition system were great. It has none of the slow burn wide air/fuel ratio characteristics that a hydrogen enriched gas has. Not to mention the gasoline would probably tend to wash the lubricating oil off of the slide valve. It is unclear to me how the gasoline was vaporized for the flame. A truly curious engine from the colorful early developmental period of internal combustion engine design.

Wayne Timms, The information I have read on the Spiels design indicated a separate Alcohol source was needed for the ignition flame. Sounds like the gasoline was giving the slide valve problems??




Last edited by Wayne Grenning; 10-20-2011 at 02:38:44 PM.
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Old 10-20-2011, 04:46:34 PM
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Default Re: Trivia - Early engine design (very early gasoline fueled)

Tommy your Charter is a 2 cycle, the charging cylinder sits underneath the power cylinder, you can see the second rod sitting on an angle under the power cylinder rod. I have a 4 page flyer here from Williams & Orton Manf'g Co that describes the engine. No gears, no pumps, power stroke every revolution but they are advertising it as a "gas" (coal gas) engine not a gasoline engine.
"The ignition valve is very simple, being cylindrical in form, and requiring no springs or screws to keep it in position, thus avoiding all friction, and requiring no adjustment before or after starting the engine. Only one light is used, and that requires no adjustment. The ignition valve can be taken out, cleaned and replaced easily within two or three minutes."
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Old 10-20-2011, 11:56:30 PM
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Default Re: Trivia - Early engine design (very early gasoline fueled)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Triebner View Post
Tommy your Charter is a 2 cycle, the charging cylinder sits underneath the power cylinder, you can see the second rod sitting on an angle under the power cylinder rod."
An early Maytag huh? And to think I used to hate 2 cycles. I love 'em now! Thanks for the info.
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Old 11-02-2011, 06:18:08 AM
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Default Re: Trivia - Early engine design (very early gasoline fueled)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Grenning View Post

Wayne Timms, The information I have read on the Spiels design indicated a separate Alcohol source was needed for the ignition flame. Sounds like the gasoline was giving the slide valve problems??
Hi Wayne,

What I have read, a rich mixture of gasoline is caught in the pocket of the slide valve, is then moved across and ignited by wine spirit.

Is it possible that the wine spirit can have a longer flame life?and some of this is still burning in the slide?

The other thing to mention is that the slide valve is mechanically moved towards the ignition flame but returns quickly via a spring.

Until I can get it running we will have to wait and see. I was considering diluting the petrol with kero to get a slower burn, but as you point out this may cause problems in washing the oil off the slide valve.

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Wayne

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Old 11-02-2011, 09:01:16 AM
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Default Re: Trivia - Early engine design (very early gasoline fueled)

Wayne, Very interesting. Do any examples of the Spiels slide valve system exist today, if so, by any chance are they in running condition?
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