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Twin City 20-35 Prototype?


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  #21  
Old 01-14-2016, 01:11:50 PM
Tony Thompson Tony Thompson is offline
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Default Re: Twin City 20-35 Prototype?

Mark,
There is virtually no text and only a few pictures of the prototypes.
The few photos are notoriously mislabeled. Let us remember that many of these pictures are not pictures at all, they are drawings or artist's conceptions.
Having been through this over and over, my opinion is that the illusion you posted on #10 never existed.
MS&MC was in financial struggles from 1920-1923. This is when the twin cam crawler program was scrapped. Aside from the last few 40-65's being assembled, the only new machines on the table in this depression era was the 12-20 & 20-35. Spending had been cut back in all unnecessary areas.
Some more intuitive conjecture here...
Some where around 1919-1920 the boss tells the add department that he needs pictures of the new 20-35 for the sales department. There are no pictures yet, only blueprints in the drafting room that shows a 20-35 being bigger than a 12-20 but looking almost the same. Artist grabs the 12-20 literature and stretches things out a bit, adds a big ole starting crank, places 20-35 at bottom of radiator and viola...the first drawings of the new tractor are conceived!
Sound crazy, an opinion, one theory...Indeed, however, the history and financial condition of the whole factory does provide clues into what may have happened. You are looking for multiple clear photographs of a prototype machine that may never have been taken, only drawn up on a hasty budget.
Even after the regular production of the rare early short fenders had been built there is very little photographic documentation of the whole low production run.
This is why I view the TC 20-35 as an ultimate collector piece. It is a grossly under-rated bad-ass bruiser that was engineered well above most others in the late teens and much of its production run is shrouded in a rather intoxicating haze of mystery.
I gave up the search you are on years ago after digging through the MN history center archives for hours and days and finding no more information to put on my website. Circulating literature shows up occasionally, but it is usually another mislabeled, poorly executed drawing like we have been trying to pick apart on this thread.
I have no solid dates or good pictures of the extinct prototypes. There may have only been a couple built to pave the way for regular production?
I hope you find a 20-35 to add in your collection some day!
Tony
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Old 01-14-2016, 11:38:21 PM
Mark Schneider Mark Schneider is offline
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Default Re: Twin City 20-35 Prototype?

Tony...I appreciate your view points and the research that you did back when it was not very easy to get it done. The computer searches certainly speed things up these days. I make use of your website on a regular basis.

My own view is that the illustration on post #10 would be reasonably accurate as the artist that made it was more than likely an employee of MS&M Co. and would have nothing to gain by doing a poor job. If this illustration was indeed an artist's rendition of blueprint information it undoubtedly would have sent back to the engineering department for an accuracy check. My own opinion is that the artist was viewing an actual tractor when the drawing was made. There are too many dimensional difference between the 12-20 and the 20-35 to make a chance illustration that would be reasonably accurate. The basic dimensions are good and we have no trouble identifying the model. There are however details that are unfamiliar to us and after 95 years the ability to verify them is both challenging and interesting.

So on to something more interesting. I stumbled on this picture of an early short fender 20-35. I think the flat iron brace that goes from fender to fender in the front would place this unit in the first 100 made for public sale. It also answered one of my questions about the possibility of the "pogo spring" on the front axle. The upper spring mount is plain to see on this tractor so it seems likely that this feature was on the prototypes. No doubt the idea of a 4 1/2 ton tractor with the wide front end held on by two sliding bolts didn't pan out too well during the field testing.

TB-2026 appears to be the spring. It is in the 20-35 parts book illustrations but I can't find it in the text. It would probably show up an early 12-20 parts book.

I've got a long ways to go before a 20-35 shows up in my yard!...
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  #23  
Old 01-15-2016, 01:01:03 PM
Jeff Blaney Jeff Blaney is offline
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Default Re: Twin City 20-35 Prototype?

That's a great picture Mark, thanks.
Was that exhaust pipe standard on the early 20-35 tractors? That too appears to be a 12-20 feature carried over to 20-35 production.
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Old 01-15-2016, 11:35:14 PM
Mark Schneider Mark Schneider is offline
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Default Re: Twin City 20-35 Prototype?

Jeff...There's two basic fuel setups on the early 20-35's. The 20-35 pictured above has the Holley All Fuel carburetor that utilizes a vaporizing coil in the exhaust manifold. This arrangement was basically the same as the 12-20's only everything is larger. That exhaust outlet would be a real treat for the poor fellow elected to put the belt on the pulley!

The other fuel blender is the Hotspot manifold. This one plumbed the exhaust gas to the intake manifold for the preheat and exited on the right side of the tractor. There is an excellent picture of an early setup on Pat Bayer's post #15. The same Holley carburetor was employed but without the coil.

I don't know which fuel system worked better than the other but I do know the guy putting on the belt chose the Hotspot hands down!
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Old 01-16-2016, 11:46:00 AM
Jeff Blaney Jeff Blaney is offline
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Default Re: Twin City 20-35 Prototype?

Yes, that hot exhaust blowing down your backside wouldn't be very pleasant.
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Old 01-16-2016, 12:41:53 PM
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Default Re: Twin City 20-35 Prototype?

I'm learning more here every day.
When i was 14 my uncle bought two Twin City tractors. He offered one of them to me for 75 dollars but i couldn't get my dad to loan me the money, he said; "what do you want old stuff like that for, we were glad when we got rid of it." I know the one TC he kept was a 17-28 as he still has it and is going to sell out and move to town this year, i'm going to buy that one.
The one he offered to me had wide rear wheels i remember and was in really poor shape and stuck. Now with these pictures i'm finally sure it was a 20-35. My uncle sold it back then to a local junker/hoarder and i heard tell he still has it. This man buys a lot of old tractors and parks them in his pasture, he's about 80 or so now.
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  #27  
Old 01-16-2016, 02:36:58 PM
Tony Thompson Tony Thompson is offline
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Default Re: Twin City 20-35 Prototype?

Mark's post #22 shows closeups for details,
Here is the whole page from a road builder add.

2nd photo shows 20-35 pulling many wagons. This one has fender extensions to cover wide wheels.

3rd picture is 20-35 specially equipped with lights and some rather beefy looking wood wheels!
Where do you suppose this photo was taken ?

Information on the early short fender 20-35 is in short supply and I have enjoyed this thread, thank you Mark Schneider
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  #28  
Old 01-16-2016, 05:19:13 PM
J Ware J Ware is offline
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Default Re: Twin City 20-35 Prototype?

So Tony, would they have considered the tractor in the third picture an industrial, even though it is in this piece of literature. Or was this their beginning of their industrial line? Jim
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  #29  
Old 01-16-2016, 06:49:52 PM
Tony Thompson Tony Thompson is offline
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Default Re: Twin City 20-35 Prototype?

Hi Jim,
These photos are from separate sources and were not all in the road building literature if that is what you are asking.

I have it listed on my website as an industrial under the factory options button because original literature shows 12-20's from the same time frame with rubber over wood listed as such.
That poor photo of unknown origin would date somewhere around 1920 as I see early features on it.
This thread is dealing with early prototype and short fender 20-35's and we will be hard pressed to come up with much more than what has already been posted. I check in here each day in hopes that a member will post something we have not seen yet
After the short fenders (around 1921 through 1925) there are lots more photographs and original literature of regular production to enjoy.
Tony
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  #30  
Old 01-17-2016, 12:22:47 AM
Mark Schneider Mark Schneider is offline
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Default Re: Twin City 20-35 Prototype?

Tony..I did not know that the picture on post #22 was part of an ad. I only came across the photo. That ad brings up yet another question...

Were the 20-35's that were fitted with the Pierce governors ever offered for public sale?
I noticed that Pat Bayer's # 3214 is outfitted with the Twin City governor and I can't find any evidence in the parts book that any 20-35 after serial #3200 had a Pierce governor installed. If the illustration on the grader ad is a representation of the actual tractor on the grader then that tractor would probably fall in the pre #3200 range and would actually be a prototype.

I found this "debut" article on the 20-35 in an archived copy of "Tractor World" in May of 1921. That illustration is the same one that was in my parts book (post #10). The article lists the rear wheel width as 20" which the illustration clearly isn't. More on that later.

I really liked that photo you posted of the 20-35 pulling the loaded grain wagons. Imagine careening along at 2.99 mph with that load! Those fender extensions would be real life necessities if operating in loose dirt and wind. I took the liberty to expand it for detail.
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  #31  
Old 01-17-2016, 01:38:36 AM
Jeff Blaney Jeff Blaney is offline
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Default Re: Twin City 20-35 Prototype?

Tony, from what I can tell the third picture in post #27 of the 20-35 equipped with wooden wheels appears to be on a beach or large sand river bank pulling a large piece of timber.
West Coast perhaps?
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  #32  
Old 01-17-2016, 11:49:54 AM
Tony Thompson Tony Thompson is offline
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Default Re: Twin City 20-35 Prototype?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider View Post
Tony..I did not know that the picture on post #22 was part of an ad. I only came across the photo. That ad brings up yet another question...

Were the 20-35's that were fitted with the Pierce governors ever offered for public sale?
I noticed that Pat Bayer's # 3214 is outfitted with the Twin City governor and I can't find any evidence in the parts book that any 20-35 after serial #3200 had a Pierce governor installed. If the illustration on the grader ad is a representation of the actual tractor on the grader then that tractor would probably fall in the pre #3200 range and would actually be a prototype.

I found this "debut" article on the 20-35 in an archived copy of "Tractor World" in May of 1921. That illustration is the same one that was in my parts book (post #10). The article lists the rear wheel width as 20" which the illustration clearly isn't.
Mark,
You seem to be driven forward by the smallest of details!
This is good, however, our sources for details are limited and mixed up so I tend to look beyond the poorly organized details to the big overall picture of company history, economical conditions and sales/usage to theorize answers to some of these questions.

The Pierce governor was used on early 20-35's until MS&MC replaced it with their own design...that may be all we ever know about this tiny detail.
Did buying public get some of them? I would say yes, but not because it is clearly listed in precise manuals with prices, quantities and dates, but more because if any of these machines were ready to be sold they needed to be gone ASAP no matter what governor is on them to avoid nervous bankers from shutting the whole works down...sometimes guessing is all we are left with and the best ideas will be found by looking at the big picture because history seems to repeat itself within manufacturing facilities run by bosses and bankers.

Is the tractor in the grader add a prototype?
My guess is no because their is too many spokes in the front wheels to be prototypes and the TWO tractors in the ONE grader illustration are not even the same machines!

The 1921 "debut" article needed a picture for public appeal and it got the same picture that appeared in several other forms of printed material that was often mislabeled. This drawing does not even look right. It has 12-20 features, I see a lot of the steering wheel showing above rear wheels that look small. I am not even sure what I am seeing here...anyone else care to weigh in on that one? By 1921 that questionable drawing should not have been used. To me this is proof that the same photos and drawings got used over and over for several years right or wrong.
More of my big picture opinion, but these were tough times in a tough environment where proper documentation may have taken second place to the demands of reality

I was an old school pioneer in recording TC history and tried to set enough of the accurate text and photos together to make a basic useful compilation for enthusiast's to use.
No one has made my head hurt quite like you do! Thank you for that! You are a valued Smokstak member and I hope to meet you in person someday
Tony
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  #33  
Old 01-17-2016, 04:34:08 PM
JSWithers JSWithers is offline
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Default Re: Twin City 20-35 Prototype?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Thompson View Post
No one has made my head hurt quite like you do! Thank you for that! You are a valued Smokstak member and I hope to meet you in person someday
Tony
I would suspect you could make that happen this year at Rollag since there will most likely be quite a few TC's there this year.
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  #34  
Old 01-17-2016, 05:12:24 PM
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Default Re: Twin City 20-35 Prototype?

Here is one more picture of a short fender 20-35 but like Tony said they are far and few between. Great to see some interest in the old TC's! See ya at Rollag.

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Old 01-17-2016, 06:24:49 PM
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Default Re: Twin City 20-35 Prototype?

Jim...If you cropped that photo please post the entire picture. I'm almost positive that's the backside of the same tractor in post #8. That tractor is equipped with the 16"x 60" rear wheels and what appears to be 6" extensions on it. The front wheels also have the early hubs.
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Old 01-17-2016, 11:33:30 PM
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Default Re: Twin City 20-35 Prototype?

Hi Mark
Here is the whole picture.

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  #37  
Old 01-17-2016, 11:46:22 PM
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Default Re: Twin City 20-35 Prototype?

Sure looks like the same tractor and the same "event", just a different view. Light colored tank and no lugs in both pictures.

Another early short fender 20-35 appears on page 91 of the TC Photo Archive book pulling an elevating grader which is dumping into a wagon pulled by a 12-20.
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Old 01-17-2016, 11:51:49 PM
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Default Re: Twin City 20-35 Prototype?

16" x 60"? Where did that come from?

When I stumbled on this I found it quite interesting. I think you will too. While the 2nd revision of the parts book has its challenges there is some obsolete information that got left in it that is useful.

Picture #1. Part of the original blueprint that detailed the left side rear wheel, differential, transmission, clutch, and belt pulley. I was looking for a reasonably accurate method to determine the original rear wheel width. This print shows the original wheel band #AT42 which at the time of this revision is no longer used. Notice that it is very symmetrical and it is narrower than the pulley diameter.

Picture #2. I hit upon the idea to see if the drawing was still to scale. To do this I took a caliper measurement of the belt pulley. 3.061" The size of the belt pulley is known and that is 21". 21" divided by 3.061" = 6.86" So the scale would be 1" on the drawing = 6.86" on the tractor.

Picture #3. Measured the width of the wheel band. 2.331". This figure x 6.86"= 15.99". So the wheel band width is 16"

Picture #4. Double checking the drawing for possible distortion. Measured from the center of the axle to the face of the wheelband. 4.383". This figure x 6.86" is 30.067' which would be 1/2 the wheel diameter. The wheel diameter is 60" so the drawing is quite accurate.

Note the close proximity of the wheel band to the belt pulley. When the rear wheel width changed to 20" Twin City had to add the extra 4" to the outside of the wheel in the form of a permanent "extension" because there was no room on the inside. Because the hub was no longer centered the outer row of spokes took on that peculiar concave look.
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Old 01-20-2016, 05:33:41 PM
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Default Re: Twin City 20-35 Prototype?

Nice detective work Mark!
It is good to have confirmation that the early prototype's narrow wheels actually measured 16" wide.
The manuals and blueprints have proven very accurate over the years and is an excellent place to search details.

There are still unlisted parts information that does not seem to show up anywhere.

Here is a few bits I have not found recorded anywhere.
Over the years I have learned that there were four different rear wheel widths used on The big Twin Cam series...16", 20", 24", 28" and the last few 27-44s had leftover rears from the MTM 39-57 on them.
Vast majority use 20" & 28" rear wheels. The 7" extension rims are not seen much.

There were five different heads used on these big TCs.

Mark, I hope you start a thread when you get your 20-35 home because you do good work
Tony
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Old 01-20-2016, 11:30:27 PM
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Default Re: Twin City 20-35 Prototype?

My mind is full of jumbled facts and figures. The "discovery" as it were of 4 confirmed pre-production 20-35 photos in a short period of time was quite interesting to say the least. And right under our noses for the most part!

Some more details concerning the "Photo Archive" threshing picture I found interesting.

1. That is one long feeder being used on that threshing machine...almost as long as the machine itself! The ability to thresh 4 grain stacks without resetting the thresher would seem to be a time saver however trundling that feeder around would have its challenges also. The thresher is a Twin City unit ... the TC logo can just be made out above the baggers head.

2. Who is "the man in black" that is walking toward the camera? Definitely not a bundle pitcher as he is wearing a tie also. I suspect he has something to do with the engineering department at the Minneapolis Steel & Machinery Co....

3. The 2 tone "paint job"on the 20-35 ... ? In a B&W photo galvanized and gray would appear to be the same color. Did the tractor even get painted?

4. My date estimate...no later than than Sept-Oct 1919.
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