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Ellis 1-3hp cooling question


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  #1  
Old 08-18-2009, 10:06:26 PM
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Default Ellis 1-3hp cooling question

I'm in the process of making a cooling tank for a 1-3hp Ellis engine. In the attached pic the end of the upper water pipe (circled in yellow) appears to be at head level. When filling the tank how do you avoid an air bubble in the upper pipe and head?


J.I.M.
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Old 08-19-2009, 12:31:18 AM
Jim McCracken Jim McCracken is offline
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Default Re: Ellis 1-3hp cooling question

I don't think it would be a problem.The full tank would ensure the water jacket was full and when the engine heats up it will thermo-siphon or purculate."Convection cooling."
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Old 08-19-2009, 07:17:47 AM
Ronald E. McClellan Ronald E. McClellan is offline
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Default Re: Ellis 1-3hp cooling question

John; I'm with you on this one! Air in that line will stop the flow. Water will not rise above it's own level even if it's heated. Ron
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Old 08-19-2009, 11:56:26 AM
Jim McCracken Jim McCracken is offline
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Default Re: Ellis 1-3hp cooling question

My 4hp Mogul has an elevated screen cooler about 2 feet above the cylinder and when the water boils in the water jacket it is pushed up and over the screen cooler without a pump.
A perculator coffee pot illustrates this .The pot can be half full
yet when heated it rises to the top and boils over the glass bulb.
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Old 08-20-2009, 08:49:44 PM
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Default Re: Ellis 1-3hp cooling question

Thanx for all the advise fellas. I think I'll leave the end of the pipe a little higher than head level but still in side the tank so I know the head's full of water. It should then percolate ok.

Thanx again

J.I.M.
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Old 08-21-2009, 04:02:11 PM
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Default Re: Ellis 1-3hp cooling question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald E. McClellan View Post
John; I'm with you on this one! Air in that line will stop the flow. Water will not rise above it's own level even if it's heated. Ron

John & Ron,

Jim is correct. This will work the way the drawing shows. You can even have the top pipe up out of the water and it will still circulate the water and run out of the end of top pipe. Detroit Engine Works did this on some of their larger two cylinder two cycle engines and used a funnel screen as a radiator.

Most everyone knows that if you were siphoning liquid out of a tank that as soon as you raised the end of the hose higher than the level of liquid in the tank the liquid stops flowing out of the end of the hose. However this is different with Thermo-siphon the heat from the cylinder will make the liquid rise up and rise up higher than the level in the water tank as long there is a head of cooler water to siphon in and take its place. Any air in the lines will be pushed out by the liquid as it moves up the line.
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Old 08-21-2009, 10:31:32 PM
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Default Re: Ellis 1-3hp cooling question

I can't find an engine photo which displays what I want to display........
At the link below you can plainly see the thermosiphon system on a 10-20 Titan......the return line to the tank is well above water level in the tank so there is no loop. Nothing goes back to the tank until the engine is hot enough to boil water at which time much of the steam condenses in the return pipe and more steam condenses when it exits into the water tank.......the hotter it gets the better it runs.......

http://books.google.com/books?id=vQe...ooling&f=false

(A photo link won't work)
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Old 08-22-2009, 08:01:14 AM
Ronald E. McClellan Ronald E. McClellan is offline
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Default Re: Ellis 1-3hp cooling question

I'm not familiar with this method of cooling. It's not a siphon system. The engine is suposed to run with the water boiling. I can see how it works. With the water boiling in the engine the steam will go out of the pipe at the top and condense in the pipe and tank then the lost water in the engine would be replaced from the tank by of the way water will seek its own level. That's what I like about Harry's , you learn something new everyday. Thanks Harry. Ron
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Old 08-22-2009, 11:39:35 PM
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Default Re: Ellis 1-3hp cooling question

The water in the tank will start to circulate even before it boils. How? Hot water verses cooler water. Water in the top of the tank will be hot because it was displaced out of the hot cylinder, water in bottom of tank is slightly cooler. The cooler water will siphon into the cylinder to replace the hotter water that moved out. The cycle repeats over and over = Thermo-siphon.

Note: When first starting engine the cylinder will eventually get hot enough & boil the water out the cylinder, however the water in the holding tank will not be boiling for some time.

Last edited by John Davis; 08-22-2009 at 11:55:53 PM.
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Old 08-23-2009, 08:38:15 AM
Ronald E. McClellan Ronald E. McClellan is offline
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Default Re: Ellis 1-3hp cooling question

It is an open system in that it doesn't have valves or pumps. it can't be closed/sealed or you will be creating a pressure boiler. with hot water in the engine and cold water in the tank , the hot water will not rise higher than the water in the tank. "water will not rise above it's own level"!! Ron
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Old 09-18-2009, 06:59:58 PM
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Photo Re: Ellis 1-3hp cooling question

Did a little test with my two cylinder two cycle Detroit today. This engine has no water pump and depends on thermo-siphon to cool the engine. I filled the water tank up with water so the water level was about 6 or 8 inches below the top water line outlet. Started the engine ran it for about 10 or 15 minutes. Water started running out of the top outlet into the tank like you were pumping it with a hand pump. The water was not bubbling or boiling just running out about every couple of seconds. Below is a photo of how the cooling tank is setup and you can see how much higher the top water outlet is above the engine and I had the water level 6 to 8 inches below the top outlet. I was amazed at how much water was coming out of the outlet. Water will rise above its own level with a little help from heat.


Last edited by John Davis; 09-18-2009 at 07:26:49 PM.
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Old 09-18-2009, 08:12:58 PM
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Default Re: Ellis 1-3hp cooling question

Very nice John.......
What you have is a percolator. A BIG one.......but still a percolator.......
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Old 09-18-2009, 08:48:29 PM
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Default Re: Ellis 1-3hp cooling question

Yes, works on the same basic principal as the old coffee pots. Water is placed in the coffee pot, heat is applied and the water rises up in the center pipe above its on level into the top of the pot where the coffee grounds are and then the water drains back to the bottom.

John,

If you put your top pipe down into the water fill up the water tank and air gets trapped in the pipe and/or in the head, the air will bubble out of the end of the pipe as soon as the engine start to warm up. The engine will not over heat or get damaged.

Last edited by John Davis; 09-19-2009 at 04:40:39 PM.
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