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Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion Meet collectors of hit and miss engines, ask questions about collecting, restoring and showing antique flywheel engines.

Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion

John Deere E Oil Pan Scupper Question


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  #1  
Old 05-28-2009, 01:37:04 AM
afwflj afwflj is offline
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Default John Deere E Oil Pan Scupper Question

Hello,

I'm restoring my first John Deere 1 1/2 hp Hit&Miss engine.

I ran into something I think is a problem but would like some advice before I procede.

During disassembly, I found the plate that seperates the oil tank from the fuel tank was full of corrosion holes.

I've fabricated a new plate from .063 stainless and it fits up great.

Looking through the parts manual, it looks like an oil scupper cup is mounted just below the governor, on top of this plate.

Mine is missing and I would like to know how critical is this scupper?

I plan to run this engine for making IceCream and just showing at local events.

Will there be enough splash oil, or too much oil without this scupper cup?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thank You,
Frosty
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  #2  
Old 05-28-2009, 08:59:02 AM
waterlooboy76 waterlooboy76 is offline
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Default Re: John Deere E Oil Pan Scupper Question

You better have one, that is what makes a pool of oil so that the gov weights can sling it up to the mag, crank, and cam gears, without this they would get little to no oil.
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  #3  
Old 05-28-2009, 01:04:25 PM
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Default Re: John Deere E Oil Pan Scupper Question

The cup limits the amount of oil flying around.......that's why the little holes are in it.......they limit the amount of oil coming into the cup.
Without that cup you'll have oil puking x 10.
Not very desirable......especially around food........
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  #4  
Old 05-28-2009, 05:35:35 PM
afwflj afwflj is offline
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Default Re: John Deere E Oil Pan Scupper Question

I appreciate the advice.

I'll begin the hunt for an oil scupper.

Many Thanks,
Frosty
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  #5  
Old 05-28-2009, 07:07:37 PM
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Default Re: John Deere E Oil Pan Scupper Question

Unless it was in bad shape, you should be able to drill out the rivets and reuse your original oil cup.
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  #6  
Old 05-28-2009, 11:21:40 PM
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Default Re: John Deere E Oil Pan Scupper Question

Craig is absolutley right on this subject!!
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  #7  
Old 05-29-2009, 03:07:23 AM
peterR peterR is offline
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Default Re: John Deere E Oil Pan Scupper Question

Heres a photo of my new fuel tank top with old oil pan. The old oil pan was plug welded to the base. If you want full details send me a private message with your email address. Indeed any further questions get in touch as I have just completed a full restoration and have numerous photos.

Peter
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  #8  
Old 05-29-2009, 01:06:11 PM
afwflj afwflj is offline
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Default Re: John Deere E Oil Pan Scupper Question

Peter,
Thanks for the picture. I've located an oil pan with the scupper still attached. It's in pretty bad shape with several rust holes in it. It looks like I can grind off the spot welds and re-weld it to the new seperator plate.

I would appreciate any more pictures of your rebuild.

I'm always encouraged to see others progress

One question I have is about the clearance between the two pivoting arms, inside the little side cover. One is driven by the governor rod, that rotates and catches the lever that pushes on the exhaust rod. Do you know how much clearance should be between the two pivot arms?

Thanks for your advice and encouragement.
Frosty
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Old 05-29-2009, 01:57:43 PM
peterR peterR is offline
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Default Re: John Deere E Oil Pan Scupper Question

If you haven't already looked, go to http://oldengine.org/members/allen/Manuals/JDModelE.pdf, and http://oldengine.org/members/allen/Manuals/JDMag.pdf for copies of manuals on the engine and servicing the magneto.

Inside the governor box you have 2 main items as well as the governor shaft . The cam follower which just slides out and the hook up plate. When refitting the governor parts:

The governor was re-fitted, again using a thin shaft of wood through the spokes of the cam gear to hold it in place whilst the LEFT hand threaded nut was tightened. The cam follower and hook up lever were then fitted, after placing the shaft for the speed adjustment nut through its hole in the side of the governor housing and lightly fitting its nut. The welsh plug at the top of the hook up lever pivot rod was then replaced. The hook up lever plate should be adjusted when the governor balls are closed and the cam follower is pressed tight against the engine. Turn the hook up lever adjusting screw until there is between .030 to .060 inch side clearance between the hook-up lever plate and the hook up section on the cam follower. Is difficult to measure the gap with gauges and an easy way to do this is to use the shank of a drill bit, say .043 inch. After tightening the lock nut check the measurements again to ensure the adjustment has not changed.

Another point - when refitting the Magneto ensure the bolts (one of which is shorter) are replaced the right way round else you will crack the magneto base.

Send me an email if you need further info. or are not sure about something.

Peter
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Old 05-29-2009, 10:54:01 PM
afwflj afwflj is offline
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Default Re: John Deere E Oil Pan Scupper Question

Thanks Peter,

I appreciate the links to the manuals.

Your suggestion using a .043 drill bit work great.

Someone has replaced my fuel line with a plain piece of copper tubing with a compression fitting on the end attached to the carb (if you could call it a carb).

It doesn't have a check valve or the coarse thread fitting going into the gas tank.

Do you have any pictures of what us used for a gas line?

I've read this line must have notches filed in the end, but I can't picture why.

Any information on your fuel line and associated set up, would be appreciated.

Thanks again,
Frosty
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  #11  
Old 05-30-2009, 01:54:33 AM
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Default Re: John Deere E Oil Pan Scupper Question

The oil scupper is critical. A while back someone brought over an E that made funny noises after it was running for a while. Pulling the cover revealed an aluminum piston that was badly scored and a crankcase full of aluminum powder. It seems they used silicone sealer on the pan, and plugged up the drain holes into the scupper. No oil was being splashed by the governor.

My bright idea was to make more holes so there would be less chance of clogging in the future. The result was TOO MUCH oil being flung around, and oil puking out of the engine's every orifice.

As you might guess, removing the holes took a little longer than it did to make them.
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Old 05-30-2009, 03:41:10 AM
peterR peterR is offline
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Default Re: John Deere E Oil Pan Scupper Question

Hello Frosty

You will need a check valve on the end of the fuel line, the shallow 'v' being cut in the end of the pipe to stop the check ball or dart sticking. The pipe itself has 2 fittings at in the engine casting, an outer cast iron plug with a smaller brass one screwed in around the pipe.

On my check valve I have also just soldered a square of fine brass mesh as a fuel filter.

If you take the mixer apart ensure that the thin slot cut in the end of the needle seat is vertical when you assemble it, else fuel will not atomise correctly.

Peter
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  #13  
Old 05-31-2009, 10:39:29 PM
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Default Re: John Deere E Oil Pan Scupper Question

Rob, Thanks for the advice. I think I've got the oil scupper problem solved. I ground the spot welds off the old plate I got last week and have welded it onto a stainless plate of .080. This is my new seperator plate between the gas and oil tanks.

And Peter, I sure appreciate the great picture of your fuel line.

I think mine may be one of the orig. lines, but the check valve is broken off. The tank side of the line is broken off jagged.

Any thoughts on the best place to buy a new fuel line assembly?

I've gotten everything cleaned and repainted. I'm hoping to get this ole girl running by next weekend.

I've been working on a magneto for this John Deere E, but I'm not sure if the center winding is good or not. I'm measuring very little resistance between the slip rings. Do you know anything about the mags?

Thanks again for all the great help. I'm sure enjoying this little engine!!

Frosty
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Old 06-01-2009, 03:17:21 AM
peterR peterR is offline
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Default Re: John Deere E Oil Pan Scupper Question

Hi Frosty

The check valve is simple to make if you have a lathe else Star bolt sell then and other fitting for the brass pipe.

I assume that you are talking low tension magneto. I guess that you have spun the magneto by hand whilst rubbing its output wire against the body to see if it sparks - alternatively it should generate 6 or 7 volt AC when turned by an electric drill. If you strip the magneto you might well need to re-magnetise it when fully assembled again. Cleaning the pick up and its ring might help. The wiring on these old magnetos is rather durable, but not the metal casings which become more brittle with age so be very careful.

If you feel no tug or resistance from the magnets when turning the armature then any problem might be magnetism - you will need to find someone with a re-magnetiser - sorry I cannot do it as I am just a bit too far away across the pond!!

Peter
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Old 06-02-2009, 06:33:43 PM
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Default Re: John Deere E Oil Pan Scupper Question

If you don't have an original you can fabricate one out of a tin can with a pair of snips in a few minutes.
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Old 08-14-2009, 08:48:24 PM
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Default Re: John Deere E Oil Pan Scupper Question

Is anybody supplying the oil pans with the cup already attached? I used one from Starbolt on a JD I restored several years ago but see that they have dropped them from the catalog. Thanks, Mike
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  #17  
Old 09-19-2009, 10:06:52 AM
Gary55379 Gary55379 is offline
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Default Re: John Deere E Oil Pan Scupper Question

Did you have your ice cream John Deere at the Minnesota State Fair??
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  #18  
Old 09-19-2009, 12:26:23 PM
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Default Re: John Deere E Oil Pan Scupper Question

lol i saw that ice cream stand and all i have to say is i bet they made a killing for 4 bucks a small scoop.
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