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Polisher Restoration


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  #21  
Old 04-24-2017, 10:21:39 AM
J.B. Castagnos J.B. Castagnos is offline
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Default Re: Polisher Restoration

The A/C in my first house had a single leg contactor on a 220 compressor, one leg stayed hot, I found that unusual.
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  #22  
Old 04-25-2017, 10:41:42 PM
Mark Dieckmann Mark Dieckmann is offline
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Default Re: Polisher Restoration

Quote:
Originally Posted by J.B. Castagnos View Post
The A/C in my first house had a single leg contactor on a 220 compressor, one leg stayed hot, I found that unusual.
It's still very common for air conditioners to use a single pole contactor. IIRC it was common and dare I say safe to use a double pole switch on a grounded leg three phase system. The grounded leg was not switched. Come on guys I know that these systems are somewhat antiquated by today's standards, but I'm only 46 and yet I have personally worked on numerous grounded leg systems still in constant use, both 480 & 240 volt.
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  #23  
Old 04-25-2017, 11:13:25 PM
Vanman Vanman is offline
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Default Re: Polisher Restoration

Code, as in the NEC, has nothing to do with the wiring within machines like this. Quite typical within machines to Not switch all ungrounded lines, as has been mentioned.

In your case you will only be supplying the machine with two ungrounded conductors anyway, since a cap will go to the third. Easy as pie.
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  #24  
Old 04-25-2017, 11:23:33 PM
Mark Dieckmann Mark Dieckmann is offline
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Default Re: Polisher Restoration

Dal, If you are connecting it to a more modern 3 pH or a rotary converter use a 3 pole. If you are connecting to a grounded system a two pole would be fine, but not up to date code wise. It sounds like you may be making a static converter, if so a two pole switch is fine here as well since the converter is connected after the switch. Lots of good info on the web about homebrew static converters.
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  #25  
Old 04-26-2017, 02:16:45 PM
dalmatiangirl61 dalmatiangirl61 is offline
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Default Re: Polisher Restoration

I sent Cincinnati an email on Monday with the serial#, have not heard back from them yet, was hoping they could fill in the blanks on the data tag.

So using WAG methodology I'm going to guess this is a 1hp motor, what mfd cap should I try?

I'm kind of familiar with static phase converters, more familiar with rotary converters, but have never tried the capacitor trick. What are the pro's/con's of using a capacitor?

posborne
I'm the queen of scrounging, how do you think I ended up with this cool machine.
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  #26  
Old 04-26-2017, 04:35:44 PM
J.B. Castagnos J.B. Castagnos is offline
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Default Re: Polisher Restoration

The capacitor is a static convertor. Would a VFD work on this machine, they are getting reasonable.
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  #27  
Old 04-26-2017, 05:01:58 PM
Mark Dieckmann Mark Dieckmann is offline
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Default Re: Polisher Restoration

Try this. There are loads of pages on numerous sites.
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  #28  
Old 04-26-2017, 05:14:07 PM
Mark Dieckmann Mark Dieckmann is offline
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Default Re: Polisher Restoration

As was stated the capacitors essentially make a static converter. A static converter is automatic with a potential relay to switch the start capacitor on and off. It can be done with a light switch although not as convenient. Pros : cheaply made if you have a source of used capacitors, works well on one machine. Cons: motor can't be instantly reversed-think threading, can only run one machine, motor only develops approx 2/3 of rated HP.
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  #29  
Old 04-27-2017, 12:42:24 PM
930dreamer 930dreamer is offline
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Default Re: Polisher Restoration

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalmatiangirl61 View Post
I sent Cincinnati an email on Monday with the serial#, have not heard back from them yet, was hoping they could fill in the blanks on the data tag.

So using WAG methodology I'm going to guess this is a 1hp motor, what mfd cap should I try?

I'm kind of familiar with static phase converters, more familiar with rotary converters, but have never tried the capacitor trick. What are the pro's/con's of using a capacitor?

posborne
I'm the queen of scrounging, how do you think I ended up with this cool machine.
A capacitor start in a rotary converter helps with the inrush amperage. I might have missed this but does this machine have 9 wires? Depending on the hp you could use a cheap VFD, I'd build a rotary converter for full hp and to use on other 3 phase stuff. I'll find my pics this weekend.
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  #30  
Old 04-27-2017, 03:51:21 PM
dalmatiangirl61 dalmatiangirl61 is offline
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Default Re: Polisher Restoration

Still no reply from Cincinnati, knowing the hp would help me decide which way to go. I can put a vfd on it as inexpensively as doing a static converter, it just seems like over-kill for a machine that runs at 1 speed. If its 1.5hp I would probably not miss 1/3 of the power, if its 1hp or less, well I probably need all the power it can put out. I have a rotary converter, 20hp, again it seems like overkill. This machine, and the others I've been fixing up are all going to the Nevada shop, and I suspect its going to take awhile to figure out machine placement, my shop area there is only 12ft wide x 90ft long.

The current data tag looks like la shi so I've been contemplating making a new brass tag for it, but without info to stamp into it whats the point? So I'm agonizing on whether or not to remove/destroy that tag, and I can't paint until I make the decision.

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All I see coming out the bottom of motor is 3 wires.
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  #31  
Old 04-27-2017, 04:35:01 PM
Vanman Vanman is offline
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Default Re: Polisher Restoration

Are you able to read the full load current on the nameplate? That is all we need to calculate a ballpark figure for the run cap.

As applied to the operation of a three phase motor on single phase, the purpose of the start capacitor is to increase the starting torque. The purpose of the run capacitor is to allow the motor to carry full load, or nearly so, without overloading the other windings.

Your buffer starts unloaded, and so therefore will likely start on a run cap alone. No switches, no potential relay, no VFD, and certainly no replacement of your nice, original, high quality switch. Meh, at worst give it a little extra spin by hand when you throw it on the line.

I have a theory that the whole arrangement may work better with the cap connected to the neutral instead of the line, thus compensating for the fact that the cap produces a 90* phase shift while the windings are displaced by 120* electrically. It's on my to do list of experiments.

Keith
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  #32  
Old 04-28-2017, 10:37:49 PM
dalmatiangirl61 dalmatiangirl61 is offline
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Default Re: Polisher Restoration

Had 3 sets of eyes look at the tag this evening, did it wet, did it dry, moved the light around etc, here is what we came up with. ______ means it looks like a spot to print something, but there is nothing there, ??? means something is there, but everybody see something slightly different.

______________
KHA-Y 112
______ 3450
???? 55 (plus degree symbol)
220 60 3

We got 3 different answers on ???? , but everybody agrees last 2 digits are 75, 2 people say its either 175 or 475, third person says he sees 2475.

I'm guessing the Y indicates that it is wired wye. I'm pretty sure it is 112 and not 1 1/2, the spacing is just not right for that. 3450 sounds like rpm, even though current Cincinnati production only shows 1800 rpm units. The rest is self explanatory.

I'll send another info request to Cincinnati with this info, maybe it will get a response, tried calling on Thursday, just went to voicemail.
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  #33  
Old 04-29-2017, 12:45:27 AM
Vanman Vanman is offline
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Default Re: Polisher Restoration

55 degrees would be the temperature rise in centigrade.

Looks like there isn't even a spot for amps then.

Well, could get it started on single phase, doesn't matter how, even just using a rope, then measure the no load current (with no caps in the circuit). Then size a run cap that will flow a bit more than that to the third line. That'd likely work just fine.
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  #34  
Old 04-29-2017, 08:29:16 PM
s100 s100 is offline
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Default Re: Polisher Restoration

From about a thousand miles away that looks like a 1HP. This is a good application for a VFD. Running at 3450 is a bit speedy for a polisher and if you put a wire wheel sized for a machine like that, it may take off like an airplane. The VFD will let you tailor speed to your application. As stated previously, VFD's are coming down in price, and one HP is a pretty small unit. If you find a three phase (input) unit without lost leg detection, that small a unit will work just fine on single phase. But even true single phase (input) units are available really cheaply now. And all you have on that machine is an improper switch. The VFD will act as your overload protection and soft starter as well as a three phase generator.

Just looked at my 1HP Cincinnati and it says "load amps" 3. It's 1750 rpm. Thinking about it a bit more, yours may not be 1HP. 3450 rpm is awfully fast for a 1HP machine. Every one I can recall seeing is 1750 rpm. You may have 3/4HP. I have a 2HP as well but can't check the amps because it was set up at the factory as 440 - only. Could probably double that rating but it's a moot point because the 2HP machine is MUCH bigger than the 1HP. And when I say MUCH that's what I mean. They're not even close.

---------- Post added at 08:29:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:12:38 PM ----------

Just took another look at my 1HP. the tag is arranged in this way:

Type Model
CPDA 102

Rating No Load Speed
1HP 1750

Load Amp Temp. Rise
3 55

220V 60 3

(Then the serial number)

So yours is probably type KHAY model 112. The blank before the 3450 might have been the HP rating and the question mark part is likely the amps. If their model numbering system has any rationality to it at all, the first digit of the model might indicate HP. But I put this to the test with the big one and it is model "SPL" so who knows. If the last digits of your amp rating are 75 then it's a fair guess it will be 2.75. The big one is no help since it has two motors (a dust catcher fan) so who knows if the rating is for one or both.
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  #35  
Old 04-29-2017, 10:30:25 PM
dalmatiangirl61 dalmatiangirl61 is offline
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Default Re: Polisher Restoration

Did a bit of googling and finally found something on vintagemachinery.org, an old catalog from 1957, uploaded by none other than Keith Rucker. If you scroll down to page 13 there is the model KHA. So until I get more info I am going to assume this is a 3/4hp machine, and in the notes it indicates it can be ordered in 220/3ph, which would explain the -Y. Of course not everything matches up, according to pics I have the General Duty pedestal, but the Heavy Duty motor.

http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1848/16439.pdf

The surprising thing is that at the end of catalog they have a list of dealer locations, and one is New Braunfels Tx which is just down the road aways (15 miles), I wonder if this is where it came from. Probably not, like coins, machines travel, this one is heading west in about 30 days.

So if its 3/4hp, I need every leg of that lame pony, so a vfd is probably the answer. Doing some reading today on 1ph to 3ph conversion I was reminded of the transformer converter, anyone here every try one, and does it suffer the same drawbacks as a static converter?
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  #36  
Old 04-29-2017, 11:43:57 PM
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Default Re: Polisher Restoration

I've been following this thread and have learned some things. I recently put a VFD on a drill press and can agree that the prices have really came down on those. I can see where the speed control would be sweet on a buffer.
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  #37  
Old 04-30-2017, 11:25:57 AM
beezerbill beezerbill is offline
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Default Re: Polisher Restoration

You might want to be a little careful about running a VFD. Overheating is one problem - the motor draws more current at the lower speeds and this gets turned into heat. Along with this the internal cooling fan is turning slower so it is not getting rid of the heat as effectively. Running the VFD at near 60 Hz so it is essentially just a phase converter gets around this problem. Another problem is that the VFD output has spikes on it, which could actually punch through the motor insulation and damage the motor. VFD rated motors have tougher insulation to avert this problem. This is a statistical thing - your motor might be fine with a VFD or it might not - and it might be fine with it for a while and then eventually fail from the constant supply of spikes. Or it might go forever. There might be ways of buffering out the spikes but I don't know what they are, and by now there might be VFDs that are OK with older motors, again I don't know but it might be worth a search.

Simplest thing to do is to run it off a static phase converter (either home-brew or borrowed off something else) and see if it has enough power to do what you want. If it doesn't and you need all three phases contributing equally than look into a better phase converter, VFD or otherwise.
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  #38  
Old 04-30-2017, 05:32:47 PM
Vanman Vanman is offline
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Default Re: Polisher Restoration

That would seem to be a valid point about the VFD spikes as they sell motors that are specifically rated as Inverter Spike Resistant.

In this case, with a motor starting unloaded, all that's needed is an appropriately​ sized run cap. It ought to start unaided and develop full output without any other parts.

On the other hand, if that guy really does buzz along at 3600 rpm, it would be a tad scary!

The VFD would work great to control the speed, but HP will be reduced in proportion to the speed reduction. In other words full load continuous torque remains unchanged.
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  #39  
Old 04-30-2017, 06:21:25 PM
dalmatiangirl61 dalmatiangirl61 is offline
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Default Re: Polisher Restoration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanman View Post
On the other hand, if that guy really does buzz along at 3600 rpm, it would be a tad scary!
Umm why? My 6" bench grinders run 3600 rpm and they don't seem too scary, at 3/4hp I'm guessing 8, maybe 10" max for polishing wheels.

Do not have a lot of time under my belt in the polishing dept, most was a few years ago helping gunsmith friend crank out a few hundred pistol barrels. He runs a homemade machine with 10" wheels, but iirc it turned pretty fast.

I'll get this thing re-wired this week, I can run it on the RPC, then on single phase with a cap and see how much difference there is. Polisher is going with me to Nevada soon, RPC won't be moved for another year.

Did some reading on another forum about transformer phase converters, there only seems to be a couple people using them and they say positive things about them. Listening to the RPC drone on when not actually in use is rather annoying.

Akuna
The static phase converters only produce 2/3 power, but my understanding is they only power 3rd leg at start, then run on 2 legs. Not quite understanding why putting in a capacitor does the same, it seems like all 3 legs would be getting power with cap just used for phase shift.
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  #40  
Old 04-30-2017, 06:53:57 PM
Vanman Vanman is offline
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Default Re: Polisher Restoration

Well, admittedly, you have infinitely more polishing experience than I.

I too have a six inch, 3600 rpm grinder, but of course the peripheral speed is also proportional to the wheel diameter, so the surface of a ten inch wheel turning 3600 rpm will be moving right along. I also have a ten inch, 1800 rpm grinder, and I really like that one. Of course grinding is quite different from polishing, I'd imagine.
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