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Vintage Diesel and Oil Engines Fairbanks Morse, Lister, Petter, Witte and other pump injected Diesel oil engines.

Vintage Diesel and Oil Engines

Deutz F2L912 Help


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  #1  
Old 02-18-2018, 05:50:46 PM
ccs ccs is offline
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Default Deutz F2L912 Help

Hi all, first post here. I've got a 1970 F2L912 Deutz that I'm having trouble with and was hoping for some advice. It's attached to an air compressor which was given to me a few years ago. It had previously been sitting for an unknown number of years, but likely 20 or better.
When I first got it, I had it running without too much trouble, seemed to run ok. Then I let it sit outside for a couple years (it was sitting outside before also but was somewhat covered). I got it into the shop the other day, it was froze up. I was able to get it freed, and then started surprisingly easy (I think it was the compressor that was froze, theres no way to easily distinguish between the two).
But there were some issues. When it first started, it idled slowly but then the RPM's steadily rose. It didn't get going too wild, but I couldn't shut it off. In subsequent starts and after reading on the forum, I tried covering the air breather, but that wouldn't do anything but slow it way down. I had to pinch the fuel line and wait for it to run out every time. Also, one cylinder was getting much hotter than the other. After maybe 10 minutes of running, the hot cylinder read as high as 305 F while the cool one never made it over something like 170, might have only been 150.
The last time I had it running, it idled down a fair amount after about 5 minutes of running, but I still couldn't shut it off. After letting it cool all the way down, I went to start it again and it wouldn't, and hasn't since.
So now I'm getting fuel out of one pump and nothing out of the other. I really want to take the whole injection pump apart, clean it up, put it back together and see if that solves it. But from what I gather, I'm more likely to screw something up on the pump by doing that and not knowing what I'm doing.
Any advice? Thanks!

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  #2  
Old 02-20-2018, 11:00:40 AM
cornbinder89 cornbinder89 is offline
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Default Re: Deutz F2L912 Help

My guess is one element in the pump was stuck and by forceing it you got it to run on one cyl but the stuck element keeps the other wide open, and prevents the shut down from working.
You are on the right track that the pump is the problem, but without experience and tools you are likely to do more harm. It will be expensive to pay someone to fix the pump. SO if you are willing to gamble, then attack it yourself, just keep in mind that you may make it never run again. If you need it running, pay an injection shop to do the work.
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Old 02-21-2018, 08:14:34 AM
edward moller edward moller is offline
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Default Re: Deutz F2L912 Help

before you tear it apart, try heating the bad inj pump, gently with a hot air gun. sometimes it will cause them to turn lose. then you can massage it with your favorite lube.
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Old 02-21-2018, 07:24:21 PM
aloris aloris is offline
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Default Re: Deutz F2L912 Help

You have an atlas copco 85 cfm. You have to remove entire eng side cover to access injector pumps . Need nes gasket. Do not toucb vertical screw,that is your balance adj. All parts are available at dealer. As prev poster said, 1 pump was froze and it snapped when you freed up tbe motor.i have the same unit out of rental yard via scrapper tbat was froze in both cyl s .spent $500 on parts 20 years ago. Good luck.
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Old 02-22-2018, 12:09:13 AM
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Default Re: Deutz F2L912 Help

@ cornbinder
Thanks for the response, albeit not the news I was hoping for. Do you mean I might do permanent damage that no one would be able to fix, or just me? I don't need it running, I just think it's a cool machine and don't really want to destroy it.

@ edward moller
Thanks, I might go ahead and try that. That's why I was starting it, let it get hot, shut it down and let it cool, was hoping it might turn loose. It seems I made it worse by doing that though.

@ aloris
Wow, you're the first person I've found that knows anything about the compressor end of it! The Atlas Copco guys so far haven't been able to tell me anything even. All the tags are gone off the compressor and engine so I've had a hard time finding any info. When you say "1 1 pump was froze and it snapped when you freed up tbe motor" do you mean I broke something? Know any more about the compressor?

I could easily be wrong here, but I actually think the #1 pump was pumping in the beginning and has since ceased. The reason being that there are two levers on top of the valve cover that you push down to open the exhaust valve (I think) and then you can freely turn over the engine with no compression. When I released one or both, I would get puffs of smoke out of the exhaust. It seemed that when I released the one on the #1 cylinder, I got smoke, more so than the #2. It also seemed more likely to start when I released the #1.

Anybody know if those levers are normal on a Deutz? They look a bit homemade to me and I haven't seen another one online with the levers.

Thanks again for the help!
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Old 02-22-2018, 01:22:59 PM
cornbinder89 cornbinder89 is offline
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Default Re: Deutz F2L912 Help

I agree the levers are "home made", a better picture of them will tell the tale.
My experience with Deutz are with later and more cyl. IIRC we had one 2 banger, most were 3,4,5, and 6 cyl models, all 3 and up had inline pumps, I don't remember about the 2 cyl.
The two single element pumps are linked by a mechanical linkage inside, my guess is one is frozen in the full fuel position, holding the other one in the same. The frozen one will not pump, so the engine is running on one, wide open.
Once the engine is shut down, when the shut down is released, the pumps go "full fuel" and that is where they are with the engine at rest,
You'll have to dis-assemble the side cover, and the pumps to find out what is stuck, and if or how much damage is done to the pumps.
A lot of things have to be set right for the two cyl to carry and even load and the timing to be correct and not too much fuel supplied to the injector. It is easy to damage the pumps and linkage if you don't have experience with them.
things need to dis assembled in a certain order and position. If you don't have the experience the learning curve can be expensive. Not saying it is impossible for you to fix, but it would at least help having someone who has some time in on that engine look over your shoulder and advise while you are doing it.
I have freed up Detroit injectors, and these pumps would be similar, By forceing it when the pump element was stuck you likely did some damage, While it is possible that varnish is whats holding the element and could release with a little heat, it is also unlikely that it seized without scoring the barrel, You might get lucky with a little mild heat, but be prepared for more work/money to fix.
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Old 02-22-2018, 01:29:41 PM
aloris aloris is offline
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Default Re: Deutz F2L912 Help

Those levers are compression reliefs. The del valves have plungers that run off the cam that are spindly and will snap if gummed up. As cor the compressor, the 2 outside cyls feed the middle. I dont see a tank. Mine was trailer mounted witb the eng comp mounted on 2 long tanks wiht axle and cabinetry.. a good dealer should be able to supply you with spares.as for the eng you will need to see deutz dealer.
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Old 02-22-2018, 06:57:56 PM
cornbinder89 cornbinder89 is offline
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Default Re: Deutz F2L912 Help

There are plenty of Pic's on the net, none of which have those "homemade" looking levers, I never saw a 912 with them, so don't think they are original.
The 912 can be direct or indirect injected (W suffix IIRC).
Found this pic on the .net you might be interested in
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  #9  
Old 02-22-2018, 07:35:58 PM
cornbinder89 cornbinder89 is offline
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Default Re: Deutz F2L912 Help

It has been my experience that Deutz are very long running good engines, but VERY expensive to work on. I remember rolling a $2000 set of bearings into a Deutz.
I would love to have one in my stable, but if they need work, prepare to spend money.
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Old 02-23-2018, 11:48:19 PM
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Default Re: Deutz F2L912 Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by aloris View Post
Those levers are compression reliefs. The del valves have plungers that run off the cam that are spindly and will snap if gummed up. As cor the compressor, the 2 outside cyls feed the middle. I dont see a tank. Mine was trailer mounted witb the eng comp mounted on 2 long tanks wiht axle and cabinetry.. a good dealer should be able to supply you with spares.as for the eng you will need to see deutz dealer.
This one was set up with a large tank on the back of an old service truck along with a 1950 400A Hobart welder. I'm not sure if the tank is original or not, it's about 120 gallons. I've so far only been able to find one other compressor like this one and it was set up similar to what I think you described.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzJzIZ5ug98

Did yours have a throttle control similar to mine, or like the one in the video? Or something completely different alltogether? The reason I ask is I'm still wondering what this thing in the upper right corner of the picture is and what role it plays. My only guess is that it gives sort of a delay or swing adjustment so that the engine is constantly reving up or down every time a little air is used?

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Do you know what PSI this compressor will be able to reach? The old tank is only rated for 150 psi, so I'm assuming the compressor doesn't put out a lot of pressure. Thanks!
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Old 02-24-2018, 12:07:39 AM
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Default Re: Deutz F2L912 Help

@ cornbinder

Thanks again for all the info and advice. Wish the picture of the pump was bigger so I could see it better, but it kinda makes me want to pull it off of my engine and look!

Question for you though, if it had been running on only one cylinder, wouldn't it have been obvious that something was really wrong? While it's possible I wouldn't know the difference, just seems like with only 2 cylinders, it would be obvious?

I had the valve covers off the other day to work on those levers as one of them was really loose and I thought might be the cause of my frozen engine if water leaked in through it. And the other lever the screw that attaches to the "plunger" had snapped off so I was welding it back together. When I cleaned it up prior to welding I found that the screw was actually brazed to the "plunger," so I was really thinking this was some homemade setup. I'll get a closer picture and post it up.

Not liking the sound of how expensive this thing might be to fix. I know you said having someone rebuild the pump would be expensive, do you have a ballpark figure you'd be willing to throw out? I asked a good diesel truck mechanic friend if there was someone in town who might be able to work on this Deutz. He gave me a name, but apparently he's a shady character, so if I decide to go that route, I'd like to know if he's trying to rip me off.

Thanks again for the help.
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Old 02-24-2018, 11:52:09 AM
cornbinder89 cornbinder89 is offline
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Default Re: Deutz F2L912 Help

2 cyl that are inline, have to be heavily counter-balanced so will have very heavy flywheel. You might not notice one dead cyl if the engine isn't under load.
If the compressor is 2 stage it might be as high as 175 psi for max, I think a previous poster said the outside 2 cyl feed the center.
I would guess that the throttle works like a conventional pressure switch, pressure builds to 125 psi then the unloader kicks and the rpm drops to idle and stays until 95 psi, when the unloader closes and the throttle opens.

No idea on cost of repair, I haven't been around a Deutz in 25 years or so.
Before you pull the side cover, it would be nice to find a manual. The cover gasket may be a selective thickness to set injection timing, if not the gasket for the injector element might also.
As to pulling it apart yourself, it depends on your skill and understanding of how diesel injection works. If it is all a black box mystery than I would caution against it, If you fully understand how it works, have been in several pumps, just not one like this, than I would say go for it. Only you can assess you comfort level delving into it.
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Old 02-25-2018, 03:29:18 PM
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Default Re: Deutz F2L912 Help

@ cornbinder

Thanks for setting me straight on the running on one cylinder issue, probably I just didn't realize it.

I believe the compressor is a two stage. I don't really know what aloris meant when he said the "2 outside cyls feed the middle." I believe the larger cylinder on the right is the low pressure side and is fed by the intake in the center. The smaller cylinder on the left I think is fed by the one on the right, around behind them through the intercooler. The air outlet comes off of the left hand cylinder.

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Here's a couple closeups of the levers on the valve covers. They really don't look original to the engine to me, and they don't seal very well.

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I tried to find a manual before I started bothering you guys here at smokstak. I bought a service manual off ebay in digital form that claimed to cover this engine, but in fact it did not. It only covers the newer styles and nothing smaller than a 3 cylinder. The seller dug around and was able to locate a manual for this engine, but it's in German only. He said I could buy it, email it to him and he would use Google Translate to give it back to me in English. I haven't tried that, am doubtful about the finished product but I suppose its an option.

Unfortunately, however, I think you've dissuaded me from pulling it apart myself. I don't understand diesel injection very well, don't understand how they work and have never been in one. So, that pretty well rules me out! Perhaps I can find someone in town to either rebuild it or help me understand enough that I might have a chance.

At any rate, thanks again for your time and help, much appreciated.
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Old 02-25-2018, 09:04:00 PM
cornbinder89 cornbinder89 is offline
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Default Re: Deutz F2L912 Help

Ya, those compression release levers are NOT factory, It would be nice to find a new set of valve covers and just eliminate them all together.
A German manual would be worth having if that is all you can find, Often it is the spec's and assembly diagrams that you need, and the text is secondary. When you run into something you need translated, you can deal with it at that time. May be a local high school has a German teacher, or may be someone here can translate.
I worked on Austrian buses 30 years ago, and can neither speak nor read German but some how I muddled thru.
As I said, all the stuff I worked on, I remember having an inline pump, I don't remember what the one 2 cyl had for a pump, it may have been like yours or may have had a Bosch inline pump.
I have no clue about the compressor as I have not worked on them. Most 2 stage compressors can pump to 175, while most single stage compressors are limited to about 125 psi.
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Old 03-10-2018, 11:59:09 PM
aloris aloris is offline
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Default Re: Deutz F2L912 Help

So sorry just revisit this discussion and had a more careful look at your pics, mine is a 2 stage 3 cyl. 1big primary in centre and2 secondary on outside. Same air to air intercooer fed by bleed off from eng cooling fan. Mine is 85 cfm. I have mine set to unload 150 psi and load 100 psi. With the small tanks it will cycle frequently but ceep up with any needs i have with tools and tyres.the truck you described was probably set up for truck or heav5 equipt such as myself. Remove the eng side cover. Inj shops will have access to the inj pump elements as they are the same type used in the inlins pumps. The are made all over the world and are priced quite competitive for what they are.do not touch any threaded adjustments and keep the shims. This was a great design carried over to their later engs. Mack even did it on their last inlines. Take it apart. Thats how you .learn. no poppind springs or balls. Mike a
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Old 03-18-2018, 10:01:48 AM
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Default Re: Deutz F2L912 Help

Ah, ok that makes sense. Thanks again for the info. I got busy with other projects (calving time around here) and haven't done anything more with this engine so far, but am still hoping to!
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