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Building a FM 118 crankshaft?


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  #21  
Old 11-04-2013, 12:40:54 AM
Jason W Jason W is offline
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Default Re: Building a FM 118 crankshaft?

I'm watching this thread with keen interest as we have an issue with a crank. This particular crank is not one you're gonna find anywhere. We tossed around several options and talked to a lot of people. The material is just mild steel apparently and I welded it very slowly with 7018 rod. It turns true when I got done but I'm not totally sure I trust it. As I said, finding a replacement would be impossible. The only other option we would have is to make one but that in itself would be very difficult as well due to the output and front end of the crank.



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  #22  
Old 11-04-2013, 09:07:10 AM
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Reed Engine Reed Engine is offline
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Default Re: Building a FM 118 crankshaft?

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Originally Posted by Gary Reif View Post
Reed Engine we must be talking about two different types of cranks because we rebuilt ours with a wire welder and recut the flywheel ends on the lathe, and keyways with HSS cutters. I'm sure they weren't any kind of cast because the first cast iron one I rebuilt I couldn't cut so we quit rebuilding the Arrow cranks. Of course that was over 15 years ago and I don't know what's going on in that type of stuff now. The cranks we rebuilt were from the 40's 50's and 60's era engines. We also rebuilt a lot of C46, C66 and C96 Continentals (sp) before they became Arrow engines. Gary

The engines we work on daily are from the late 50's on. By now most have had the cranks replaced so maybe the "old" ones are long gone now but to my knowledge they were all either grey cast or ductile iron. Reguardless of the material they were made of and the method used we stopped repairing FM crankshafts decades ago. We had too high of a failure rate. When an engine leaves my shop I want it to make the longest run possible and my customers agree. A few dollars saved today followed by a failure and more dollars spent in the near future is not what they want. They get what they want (and pay for).

Arrow bought the C series from Waukesha in 1955. Again, to my knowledge C series cranks were cast steel. I'll ask some of the guys at Arrow about this. Arrow told me their self the FM cranks they sold (to me anyway) were cast iron. I've done business with them since 1978. The last Fairbanks Bell imported from Mexico was in the late 70's or early 80's (I could call one of the Yarbroughs and ask) but those hecho in mexico engines were some sorry quality. From 1980 on I know of only four people who made 118 cranks, Arrow, Bell, Crow and me.

To determine if a crank was a forging you'd have to cut it in two sideways and look for grain disruption. To my knowledge. To forge one from the side would be what I'd call a stamped steel. No grain disruption but it would at least be steel.

and... it could be some of you know more about this than I do. That aside, I am going to build a 118 crankshaft in the method I mentioned and I intend on sharing that as it progresses.
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Last edited by Reed Engine; 11-04-2013 at 10:25:15 AM.
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  #23  
Old 11-04-2013, 10:40:32 AM
Jack Innes Jack Innes is offline
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Default Re: Building a FM 118 crankshaft?

Jason,
I just replaced the crankshaft in a 1912 Buick that had broken for the second time. Someone had done a wonderful job of welding a complete break at the end of a rod journal. It broke again at a different journal but in the same way. It would be wise to have your crank magnifluxed or x-rayed to be sure there are not other cracks. That T head case would be harder to replace than the crank. What kind of engine is it? One never knows what is out there. I just found a crankshaft for a 1911 Cadillac about 12,000 miles from home! It was here within a week by air freight.
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Old 11-04-2013, 12:09:10 PM
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Default Re: Building a FM 118 crankshaft?

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Originally Posted by froelich View Post
That's a forged crank.
And it's also a broke crank.
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Old 11-04-2013, 12:59:59 PM
J.B. Castagnos J.B. Castagnos is offline
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Default Re: Building a FM 118 crankshaft?

A forged crank will have a wide area, usually dressed by grinding, at the parting line as the one in the Buick picture, a cast crank will have a narrow sharp parting line from the sand casting.
Some of you may have seen the article, here's a link to a 3 cylinder crank I made.

http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showth...t=lawrence+cyl
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  #26  
Old 11-04-2013, 05:07:27 PM
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Default Re: Building a FM 118 crankshaft?

Now that was crafty. I've came close to having a blank cut out like what you've done. I'm trying to keep this at a certain dollar amount. Now if I fail I'll go back to the square blank. I can machine the whole thing. I just don't want to.
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Old 11-04-2013, 09:20:49 PM
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Default Re: Building a FM 118 crankshaft?

I love the ingenuity used to craft a crankshaft and perform repairs. Ya gotta admire the stakkers, their dedication and innovation.

I was involved in a few crankshaft projects myself at the manufacturing level. A couple projects for auto cranks with Honda, and a couple for Caterpillar. The Honda projects were the heat and forge, then quickly twist them for offset before it cools down.

The fun one was for container ship engines. Like reaaaaly big stuff! I concepted and sold two systems for bending raw stock for pin throws prior to machining and one for crank pin and mains hardening to Hyundai Marine in Korea.

The scope of the project was enormous both in machine size as well as the capital investment. Iíd say the project value was around 100 million usd, with my portion being a paltry 6 mil. From conception to production it was a pretty short gestation being only 3 Ĺ years.

So hereís what we did.
System 1 Crank pin throw forming
To build a container ship crank (or Ĺ of it if two are bolted together) you simply start with a chunk of 40 inch diameter round stock about 40 feet long. Yeah, that slug weighs about 171,000 pounds. Itís clamped down in a rather large bending press. Then my part comes in. I induction heat a zone 4 to 6 feet long to 2200F and maintain a surface to core temperature of only 15 degrees. It uses an 800 kW power source and the heat times are approximately 4 hours.

The induction heating coil is then removed and a press ram moves in and pushes approximately 2 feet of the heated zone outward to form the crank throw.
The part is allowed to slow cool in place and clamped for 2 days then itís indexed and rotated for the next pin forming. The process is repeated for as many pins as the crank will have.

They wanted to form all the pins on the same axis to simplify the machine but I cited the complexity and cost of adding a second machine to heat and twist the material. Remember that the workload is 40 inches in diameter and 171,000 pounds and twisting that mass even heated to a semi plastic state would require an ungodly amount of torque. Besides, doing the initial heat and bend with clocking each crank pin without twisting eliminates any potential for stresses from a secondary twist and clock operation.

Once the crank is rough formed, it goes into a furnace at between 1500 to 1700F for a week for several stress relieving/normalizing cycles, then a slow cool for a week before the initial sand blasting and machining operations.

System 2 heat treating
We did an induction machine to harden the throws which is pretty straightforward as this has been done since the 1950ís for automotive, truck, and off road engines. But, the scope is the amazing part. The machine is about 30 feet tall as we used what are called the walking coil design. The induction coil is pneumatically clamped around the rough machined pin or main and the crank is rotated at about 50 rpm to insure the heat pattern is even around the diameter. When doing the rod pins, the coils move up and down with the stroke as the part rotates. Quenching for hardening is in situ within the induction coils.

Once the hardening has been completed, the part goes back in the furnace for a few days for the tempering of the hardened areas.

Iíd say to complete one crankshaft from raw stock to finished part takes at least a month.

We couldnít test the things here as the building isnít big enough, and we couldnít handle a 170,000 pound part, so we processed round stock segments for proof of process and to verify the case hardness depths and the correct microstructure after hardening.

I made 4 trips to Korea for that job. I have a fondness for Korean food now for some reason.
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  #28  
Old 11-04-2013, 09:48:46 PM
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Default Re: Building a FM 118 crankshaft?

Interesting. I'd liked to have seen all that done. I'm completely on the opposite side of the spectrum here, I'm doing a 6" stroke on as low a tech approach as I can. Trying to keep this to about $200.00.

On another topic, what about preheat before welding? Right now my plan is to machine counterbores for the wlelds. They will be 3/8" deep on each side. The journals are 1 1/2 thick so that's 3/4" total weld on each side making 1/2 of the thickness of the journal. I'm going to use 7018. We will fan up a small furnace to do the preheat in. Am I on track on the preheat temp?

---------- Post added at 07:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:41 PM ----------

What happened to the edit button?

I omitted the preheat temp, which is 1000 degrees. Then welded with 7018. Then cooled in the sand box till room temp before machining the mains and flywheel surfaces. The pin will be done before it's welded in that way I won't have to offset swing the crank keeping time (and cost) down.
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Old 11-04-2013, 10:06:22 PM
dkamp dkamp is offline
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Default Re: Building a FM 118 crankshaft?

I can certainly understand why having failures is unacceptable, and casting out of grey or ductile iron is undesired.

Machining, however, is very costly, particularly in individual part state.

Now, if you could waterjet cut the blanks, and then attach the counterweights to the blanks as separate pieces, it would be much lower in cost. My contention would be that if one were to do this, especially on a single-cylinder, cutting the crankshaft to recieve the counterweights as 'shrunk on', and then somehow lightly pinned or key'd, followed by machining and balancing, would be the most durable combination.

I certainly wouldn't consider making it in multiple pieces, as the time and tool-wear investment would be phenominal with respect to per-unit output... just making ONE is a high-labor cost.

I would still think that submitting the pattern for a forging would be much less expensive. About six months ago, I took a call from a nice gal from Milwaukee Forge (http://www.milwaukeeforge.com/index.html), she was looking for production opportunities for my company. Alas, we don't use forgings, but I did take a few minutes to find out what they were capable of, and how the cost of forgings compared to casting nowdays... and I was suprised at how inexpensive the forging operation could be done.

In any case, feasibility assessment isn't based solely on any one given point...

unless the concept being assessed is simply not possible...

(i.e., if the part you need to manufacture, must be manufactured from some material that does not exist... like... if you need a crankshaft manufactured from Valium 384 !).

(I wouldn't recommend making a crankshaft out of any flavor of Valium... you wouldn't need to heat it up, to make it twist... )

Anyway, if you have a facility that can waterjet, or laser, or plasma, have at it. I use laser for materials up to about 3/8" with good results. Plasma to a little over an inch. Waterjet will do it very nicely, but with ANY of the methods, the cut speed (inches per minute) drop dramatically with material thickness.

Waterjet has an advantage over laser and plasma, that there is no Heat Affected Zone.... but the cost to cut something very thick, is very, very high... and most shops I've worked with, won't re-use garnet (abrasive) because recycling it eventually contaminates and damages the machine... and oftentimes, they'll not allow it, because it can transfer contaminants from some other cut, to the next job.

Anyway, economic feasiblity nowdays, is all based on the circumstances onto which you place the need. That includes manufacturing volume AND... manufacturing timing... how quickly you need parts, greatly determines how much things COST. I get my best prices on stuff by making it so that my suppliers can do work on an as-convenient-for-them basis... they 'work it in' when other like operations occur... that makes it very easy, and very cheap for them, and that makes the cost at MY end much lower.
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Old 11-04-2013, 10:16:19 PM
Jason W Jason W is offline
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Default Re: Building a FM 118 crankshaft?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Innes View Post
Jason,
I just replaced the crankshaft in a 1912 Buick that had broken for the second time. Someone had done a wonderful job of welding a complete break at the end of a rod journal. It broke again at a different journal but in the same way. It would be wise to have your crank magnifluxed or x-rayed to be sure there are not other cracks. That T head case would be harder to replace than the crank. What kind of engine is it? One never knows what is out there. I just found a crankshaft for a 1911 Cadillac about 12,000 miles from home! It was here within a week by air freight.
It's from about a 1912 Pierce Racine (JI Case) car (a 35 or 40hp engine). It was repurposed as part of the initial run of 10-20 Case tractors. They must have modified the crank a little as we've compared it to another crank and the journals on the tractor crank are bigger and it is a bit shorter. Funny since where it broke is right in that journal. The opposite side from the pics I posted looked like a human hip joint. It was a very odd failure.

It might be possible to find one but considering how hard it is to find any parts for this engine at all I'd be amazed if one of the tractor ones existed. But if you had a lead on one I'd be all ears.
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